Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

Pibwl · #1 September 29th, 2013, 07:39 PM

CS tanks

439 Crusader II-CS - Crusaders CS were received only around 2/43 (now 1/42).

440 Crusader I-CS - not used.

Since Poland never used unit 011 Matilda II-CS, we'll need a Valentine VIII classified as CS Tank, available in 2/43-9/43, to fill a gap in formation 377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn (in this period there were used Crusaders CS in units formed in UK, and no CS tanks in units formed in ME, using Valentines)

Therefore, formation 377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn should start at 2/43 (now 9/42), while earlier formation 378 Cruiser Tk Sqdn should be extended to 1/43.

445 C4P Art Tractor - max speed was 35 km/h (12 - now 16). Crew should be 2 (4)

446 Boys Carrier - used from early 1941 (7/40).
It should be earliest unit of Scout Vehicle class - needs change in formation 288 Rec Reg Sct Tp (now available: 07/40-05/43).
Carry should be 104 (now 102)

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Vickers Mk.E tanks

Information on Vickers tanks is based upon a detailed research article by Rafał Białkowski (of course, apart from a page http://derela.republika.pl/vickers.htm)

Correct name for all is Vickers Mk.E type A/B, not Mk.A/B. It could be just Vickers E typ A/B ("typ" is type in Polish).

Short chronology:
- 6/32 - only 38 twin-turret tanks armed with wz.25 MGs
- mid-33 (say, 8/33) - 16 rearmed with 13.2mm MGs, 6 rearmed with short 37 mm
- mid-34 (say, 8/34) - started conversion of 22 tanks to single-turret - all tanks with wz.25 MGs and 37mm guns wiped out by the end of year
- 11/36 (or earlier) - twin-turret tanks with 13.2mm being converted to wz.30 MGs, 13.2mm disappear by the end of 1937 (or earlier)

449 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with wz.25 MGs - earliest) - they were delivered from 6/32 (now 1/30), used until end of 1934 (now 7/34).
Better photo of earliest twin-turret tank is 30225.

In my opinion it should have a camouflaged icon 3472, like newer tanks, despite this icon has modified air intakes (they were camouflaged from a beginning, never green).

450 Vickers E Mk.B (Vickers E typ B) - first single turret tanks were converted in mid-34, because first turrets were delivered in 3/34 (now starts at 1/34).
This unit, available at best for two months (6-7/34), seems redundant, since we have unit 644 following it from 8/34, that can be as well available from 6/34. This unit is probably only meant to represent earliest model without air intakes.
If it is removed, a template unit in formations should be changed to 644.

639 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with 13.2 TMG) - used from mid-33 - might be 8/33 (now 8/34).

640 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with 37mm gun) - used from mid-33 - might be 8/33 until end of 1934 only (now 8/34-10/37).
A photo 29426 is in fact late variant with twin wz.30 MGs (and air intakes). I'll attach a correct Vickers with 37 mm.
It is better reclassified to Cavalry Tank, so that they can play a role of an interim gun tank (before advent of Type B).

641 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with wz.25 MGs, with modified air intakes) - in fact, wz.25 MG armed tanks were used only until the end of 1934 (then, for several years, only 13.2mm and single turret ones).
Therefore, IMO this unit is redundant, for unit 449 can be well used a few months longer. The only difference is supposed to be modified air intakes, but there was no strict date of their adoption.

642 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with final wz.30 MGs) - used at least from 11/36 (11/37)
Photo 30225 is earliest tank, without air intakes - correct is 29426. I'll attach a better copy.

644 Vickers E Mk.B - can be available from some 6/34 (now 8/34) - see unit 450 above.
The tank is supposed to be in early camo, but the photo is late camo. I'll attach a better one.

645 Vickers E Mk.B - much better photo for a late tank is 27618

646 Vickers E Mk.B - much better photo for a late tank is 27618.
Radio=82 is too optimistic. It isn't clear what radio equipment these tanks got in 1939, but 52 would be closer to truth.

Edit:
I'll deal with formations tomorrow

Regards
Michal

Pibwl · #2 September 30th, 2013, 06:46 PM

Vickers E formations:

373 Vickers Tk Sec - Available: 09/30-10/39 - should be from 6/32 (as unit 449). However, a section of two tanks, especially twin-turret ones, is in fact unnecessary, when we have platoons. A section of two single-turret tanks from 6/34 would be more useful, although it's also unnecessary.

384 Vickers Tk Pl - Available: 09/30-12/33 - should be from 6/32 until 7/33 (Type A tanks only)
Now it uses 99-nation tank as a template (could be 449).

385 Vickers Tk Co - Available: 09/30-12/33 - as above

It would be most real-like to create interim formations with 37mm-armed tanks, considering, that there were only 6 - IF unit 640 Vickers E Mk.A is reclassified to Cavalry Tank:

Vickers Tk Pl - from 8/33 until 5/34, with two Cavalry tanks (eg.644) and three Light cavalry tanks (eg.449)

Vickers Tk Co - from 8/33 until 5/34, with 449 Light cavalry tank and three platoons as above

Otherwise, formations below could start at 8/33, but then a company will have more 37mm-gun armed tanks, than it was available.

386 Vickers Tk Pl - Available: 01/34-09/39 - should be available from 6/34 until 10/39.
Proportion of A and B tanks is correct, but a commander's tank should be Type B (more natural would be to place three Type B tanks first at all).
As I wrote, unit 450 is IMO redundant, and could be replaced in a template with eg. 644.

387 Vickers Tk Co - Available: 01/34-09/39 - as above.
A commander's tank should also be Type B.

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I'm attaching proposed or better pictures for Vickers, TK-3, TKS and Polish 40mm Bofors. Two are proposed for units 640 and 644.

Pibwl · #3 September 30th, 2013, 07:59 PM

451 7TP wczesny (name, meaning "early", should be changed just to 7TP)
459 7TP - as was stated in other place, both should have no sabot.
Despite common info, according to a research by K. Rudy the tanks with guns were completed and ready only after 6/38 (7/38 should be OK).
Early and late tanks could differ in radio chance only: first one could end in some 6/39 and have some 30 radio chance, second one could start in some 7/39 and have around 50 radio chance (it seems, that only platoons' commanders received radios anyway).

Formations:
383 Medium Tank Sec,
388 Medium Tank Pl,
389 Medium Tank Co should be modified accordingly - and they all should be renamed to Light Tank (it was an official classification).
For a sake of consistency, it's worth to re-classify units 451, 459 as Light Tanks as well (there are no others at that time - they are Med Tanks now).

452 R-35 - better name is Renault R-35.

However, formations: 214 Renault Tank, 215 Renault Platoon, 216 Renault Company should be renamed to R-35 Tank etc, so that they are not confused with basic Renaults in the Polish service, ie. FT.

455 7TP
467 7TP wczesny - although it wasn't their designation, but twin turret tanks could be named "7TP dw." for a sake of convenience (=dwuwieżowy - twin-turret).
Both tanks differ only in icon, and so shall it be.

They should be reclassified eg. to 15 Close Support Tank, so that they are not in mixed formations with FT-18 (formation 380).

There should be new formations of 7TP dw (names are proposals):
Lt Tank Pl (MG) - 7/36 - 9/39 - 5 tanks
Lt Tank Co (MG) - 7/36 - 6/38 - 1 tank + 3 platoons (later most were converted to single-turret)

460 7TP Spychacz (dozer) - it was designed in 1939 only [Magnuski] (now 1/38) and almost certainly remained only a prototype. There are not even known photos.
If we keep it, formation 028 should start later (and might be renamed Prototype Plough or so).

461 Panhard 178 - not used by the Polish. According to a common knowledge, the Polish didn't use any armoured cars in combat in France, however a recent article claims, that at least 3 Laffly 50 were given to the 10th Motorized Brigade in 5/40 and used for training in a recce company. Therefore, it could be replaced with Laffly 50 (unit 391 in a French oob - although a picture 15015 is in fact Laffly 80)

A formation 354 Armd Car Pl should be modified accordingly (with 3 cars, from 5/40).

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