Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

I agree - all tankettes should be given TMGs.
In the Polish TK-3, an MG had ordinary open sights, in case of TKS it was mounted in a ball mounting, with a scope, and 20 deg of elevation. So they can't be worse, than infantry's HMGs.

(BTW: it will be another story, but Italian early tankettes should have single 6.5mm MG, not a twin).

Michal

I know. Single water-cooled 6.5mm Fiat-Revelli M.14 on the CV-29 and a single air-cooled 6.5mm Fiat-Revelli aircraft machine gun on the early production CV-33. Elevation and horizontal traverse could be adjusted and locked separately (the mount was a kind of two axis gimbal in the CV-33) very much like a typical HMG mount.

The only Italian tank to use twin 6.5mm coaxial machine guns was the FIAT 3000. The current OOB has such armament on some armored cars as well, but in reality the MGs in those turrets (which were quite big) were on separate flexible mounts and even had separate gunners.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

ry much like a typical HMG mount.
in reality the MGs in those turrets (which were quite big) were on separate flexible mounts and even had separate gunners.

Which we cannot model so we use a 2x MG


Don

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by DRG

Which we cannot model so we use a 2x MG
Don

Actually, the armament configuration of those vehicles is analogous to dual turrets, so it's most accurate to model them as two separate TMGs rather than as twin coaxial MGs. The basic idea of separate gunners and flexible mounts for the machine guns is to enable the MGs to engage two separate targets if necessary. Of course the SP engine does not model that very well either, but at least two separate MGs gives the vehicle a higher chance to actually hit something than a single twin MG.

[Pibwl]

465 PZL P-11c - it was deployed to units from 11/35 only (now 11/34), so it seems redundant, because it ends at 12/35, and next unit 596 may as well start at 11/35 (now 1/36) [a book on Polish aircraft by A. Morgała]
Otherwise, it could be renamed P-11a and made available from "summer of 1935", until 9/39, with radio=91 and 188 Vickers MGs. But there's no such need IMO.

All P.11 seem too fast - max 375 km/h, so maybe it should be 4 (now 5)

597 PZL P-11c - variant with 4 MGs started to appear in late 37 (say 11/37) (now 1/36) [A.Morgała]

598, 599 PZL P-11c - P.11 could carry ONLY up to four 12.5kg bombs, so these two units should be replaced with one with #193 bombs (unless we want to create the other one with 2 bombs, or 2 MGs instead of 4).
As far, as it is known, no camouflage was used, so icon 2945 is improper (there were only experiments)


466 9TP - no sabot ammo.

470 FR AMR-35,
471 FR D-2,
472 FR B-1,
473 FR AMR-35ZT
474 FR Somua S-35 - French tanks, to be removed.

476 Renault UE - it should have top armour.

477 H-35 - as I have written, there were a couple used in 1940 for training only, so it can be left out.

However, three H-35s (or H-38s - sources differ), acquired in early 1939, were used in combat in 9/39, so it can be changed to represent these units.
I suggest full name Hotchkiss H-35. May be class 102 Cruiser tank.
It should be available in three-tank platoon in 9/39 only.

478 Humber Mk II - used only for training in 6/42-10/43, just like unit #431 Humber Mk.III. Radio should be x1.
It had also Besa CMG.

479 Rolls Royce A/C - precisely Rolls-Royce. A couple were used for training in 6/42- ?/43 (now 7/40-7/41) - they could have seen action, if Rommel had broken through at el-Alamein.
Armament should be 148 Bren AAMG and fixed Boys, it also had smoke mortar.

.

[Pibwl]

483 Spitfire Mk.XIV - I treat aircraft as a general allied support, nevertheless it's worth IMO to replace Mk.XVI with Mk.IXe, which was commonly used by the Polish - and since 4/44 with bombs.
it should be armed with two cannons, 2 x #164 .50 MG, 1 x 500 lb bomb, 2 x 250 lb bombs.
Icon should be 4618 with clipped wings.
Better picture is 30025 - which shows similar LF Mk.Vb, from a Polish 316th Sqdn.

Besides, it's worth to add Mustang Mk.III, also used by the Polish, and since 4/44 for bombing.
It should have specifications and icon like British OOB 186 Mustang Mk.1, but 4 x .50 MGs

(BTW: British Mustang Mk.I should have 4 x .50 MGs instead of 6, and 4 x .30 MGs, and speed=7, not 8 - its max speed was around 628 km/h, only Mk.III and IV had a speed over 700 km/h. US OOB Mustangs P-51B and D have speed=7, while they could have 8).


486 Panhard 178 [scout veh.] - as 461 above - not used.
Formation 455 Panhard Troop - to be removed

491 Honey Recce - in Polish units known as Stuart Recce.
Used from late 1943 or early 1944 (say 1/44 - now 9/42)
Better photo is 27739 (and of correct version)
According to Magnuski, without a turret, a max speed exceeded 70 km/h.

Same for 231 Honey Ammo Tank - name Honey wasn't known.

Formation 149 Recce Tank - Available: 09/42-12/46 needs correction as well

494 Lloyd Carrier - correct form is Loyd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyd_Carrier

It wasn't armed (and as a rule, had no armour - there were kits of front and side plates only)

495 Citroen-K P17 - should be used from mid-31, also in Poland (now: from 11/39)

505, 507 Rifle Squad - picture 30211 without LMG will be more appropriate

.

[Pibwl]

We're over a half - a bigger half in addition

Riverine craft (monitors):

510 Krakow - short-range guns #55 75mm vz.02 DFG should be replaced with #33 75mm vz.97 FG - monitors could provide indirect artillery support.

511 Krakow - weapon #139 .30 cal AAMG should be replaced with #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG (as unit 510).
However, weapon #204 is better to be renamed wz.08 (2) AAMG - it is unlikely, that monitors used newest infantry MGs, most probably they were Maxims.

Traditional sources say, that it received 13.2mm (2) AAMG in 1939, but it is not clear, if these plans were really realized. There could be created another unit with 13.2mm AAMG from 1/39 in this case.

It's worth to create a twin monitor Wilno, also in two (or three) variants.


512 Warszawa - initial armament were #67 105mm wz.13 guns, not 4.7in

Weapon #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be renamed 2x7.92 wz.08 MG - there were no wz.14 Hotchkiss used on Polish ships.

513 Warszawa - it sure wasn't armed with quad 13.2 AAMG (there was no such weapon and it could be removed from OOB). It should be #204 AAMG, as units 511, 512.
Short-range guns #55 75mm vz.02 DFG should be replaced with #33 75mm vz.97 FG

514 Warszawa - same as above.

Icon of 512-514 Warszawa should be changed to 706 (like monitors below of the same type, different from Krakow).

Is there a chance to create real icons of Krakow and Warszawa-class monitors? Now they have Hungarian icons, quite different from their real look. I could provide plans.


516 Torun - same as 513. Photo should be 30300 - now it's Hungarian Sopron.

517 Torun - same as 513 as for 75mm guns, but a photo of late Torun should be 30296.

519, 520 Pinsk - same as 513.

521 Horodyszcze - same as 512 Warszawa (#67 105mm wz.13 guns, not 4.7in)

522, 523 Horodyszcze - same as 513

All monitors from 510-523 had real speed no more, than 14 km/h (now 7 - should be 5, or 6, if we consider Renault FT tank as a lower limit)

It is unknown, why monitors of the same class 512-523 differ in Heat armour. In fact, their armour was up to 8 mm, so maybe all should have basic armour 2, as unit 510 Kraków (there were strict weight limits, since they operated on shallow rivers).


Other riverine craft:

524 Chodkiewicz - same as 513 as for 75mm guns.

It would be best to create an icon of a sidewheel steamer for 524-528 and 531-537...

525 Chodkiewicz - weapon #215 .50 Quad AAMG should be replaced with two twin #226 13.2mm AAMG (2)
Weapons #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with two #204 AAMG - it was AA ship.


527 Sikorski - weapon #215 .50 Quad AAMG should be replaced with one #226 13.2mm AAMG (2)
Weapons #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with two #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG
Full name should be Gen. Sikorski

528 Sikorski - weapons #215 .50 Quad AAMG should be replaced with 2 x #226 13.2mm AAMG (2)
Weapon #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with 1 x #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG

Speed of all the craft above (524-528) was also no more, than 14 km/h (now 7).
Size should be at least 6 - they were river ships, more conspicuous, than monitors.


529 Lekki Okret - it should be renamed LKU (Lekki Kuter Uzbrojony - Light Armed Boat; name Lekki Okret - Light Ship is wrong and wasn't used for anything
It should be available from around 1/31 (1/36)
It's definitely too fast (9) - max speed was 11 km/h (4-6)
Crew was 6 (10)
(http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-41.html)

530 Lekki Okret - there was no such vessel with such armament.
It's worth to change it to KU-30 river motor gun boat, used from 6/39 (and in hot actions), armed with one #226 13.2mm (2) AAMG, armour: 2 all around, speed=14, crew=8, suggested icon: 434
(http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-22.html)

533 Dickman - full name was Admiral Dickman.
Same as 513 as for 75mm guns.

534 Dickman - full name as above.
weapons #140 .50 AAMG should be replaced with 2 x #226 13.2mm AAMG (2)
Weapon #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG
It was used only until 1937 (now 10/39) - then it was turned into a target ship.

535 Szeptycki - full name was Gen. Szeptycki
Same as 513 as for 75mm guns.
Last date is earlier, than the first one - and it should be 10/39

536 Sobieski - same as 513 as for 75mm guns.
It should be available until 12/31 only, for those, who want to play 1920 war (in fact it was withdrawn in 1920s)
Better photo is 30297 (or 30302)

537 Stefan Batory - It should be available until 12/31 only, for those, who want to play 1920 war (in fact it was withdrawn in 1926)
Guns are better changed to 76mm wz.02 FG, which I proposed to create when writing about artillery.
It apparently wasn't armoured (maybe it should have 1 or 2 armour - now it has 4)
Better photo is 30297 (or 30302) - now it's monitor
Size should be bigger (the same for unit 531 Pancerny)

538 Kanonierka - I suggest name Kanonierka Z (kanonierka=gunboat, they were known as Z-class)
AAMG should be changed to #219 7.92 wz.25 AAMG (or whatever AAMG replacing it), instead of non-Polish .30 caliber.
Speed was actually 10 km/h (now 9 - much too big)
Crew should be 17 (10)
Better icon is 712, with two turrets.
(http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-32.html)

There should be added one fine river craft, which saw action in 1939: heavy armoured cutter CKU Nieuchwytny ("Uncatchable"). It could be based upon unit 538, with armament: #025 40mm Bofors AAG, 37mm wz.18 and AAMG.
Available from 4/34 until 9/39
Appropriate icon is 679
Speed=7, crew=16
(http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-21.html)

[Pibwl]

540 Wibault 7 - full name, according to Morgała, is Wibault 70C1

541 Lublin XIX [AOP aircraft] - to be removed - it was only a prototype, while we have a series of real Lublin XIIIs (besides, a picture and icon show Fokker C.V).


547 37mm Portee - such vehicles were used by the Polish only starting from combat at Tobruk, in 8/41 to around 12/42 (now: 1/37 - 10/39).
Better photo for 37mm is 27588 (current one shows 2pdr).
Maybe it should be given some SMG, eg 237 Sten for self-defence?

Needs change in formation #152, as its only unit - or maybe it should be reclassified as class 19 TD, made available until 10/43, and then it would be the first vehicle in formations: 088 SP-AT Section, 089 SP-AT Troop (earlier I proposed M10 3in as the earliest unit, since 11/43).


548 Taczanka [SP Flak] - .30 AAMG should be changed to proposed wz.30 AAMG.
I'll attach a picture of typical Polish taczanka (a current one is not Polish)

550 Maxim HMG Pl - all 7.62mm Maxims were withdrawn by the end of 1920s. Unless someone wants to play 1920 war, then it might be kept until 12/30.

There could be added .30 Browning 1919 MMG, used in Italy from some 11/43 until the end (radio=x1).


552 7TP [prototype tank] - it is a fiction category, but to be precise, a prototype with 37mm gun was completed in early 1937 (now 10/36)

553 Wz.31 [prototype tank] - icon looks nice, but there wasn't even built a prototype (and specifications were not much improvement over wz.29 armoured car). I'd remove it.

554 PZInz 130 - photo is Vickers Amphibian tank - I'll attach a better one - or something might be picked from http://derela.republika.pl/en/pzinz130.htm
Depending on sources, it could swim 7-10 km/h, so water speed 2 could be increased. However, armour was only up to 8 mm (now 2).

555 PZInz 130 - speed and armour as above

556 10TP - no sabot.

.

[blazejos]

Hello

When you talking about modification of Polish OOB I just tough about my file with I done around 2 years ago is more an encyclopedic than playable file so I try separate units and formations in chronological order. Generally I include there everything what I found about polish pre-war army until 1939 for example proposed 75mm AA gun which was discussed by PIBWL .There are also now correct icons of polish riverine ships (yes correct icons was included inside shp in previous release so is even not necessary to add shp files). I try to modelled also polish underground army from 11/39 through creation of the AK to anticommunists organisations post disband of AK 10/44. Polish army in France first infantry units created in September 39 (only for human) to June 1940 with R-40 tanks which also was discussed. Formation for Polish Army in France was copied from French OOB. I never finish part about Polish army in UK lost motivation. Formations are done based on page about polish structures mentioned in previous posts so are as close modelled as I can but I assume that are not exactly correct for game engine and are named in polish comparable to German OOB with German names of formations. Hope that PIBWL will be able take some inspiration about already included icons and units and formations which may be possible to add to polish OOB from that file and rewrite this into specification for changes in official OOB for next version. This OOB now fit inside an blue OOB so is easy to check formations inside game.

Blazejos

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by blazejos

There are also now correct icons of polish riverine ships (yes correct icons was included inside shp in previous release so is even not necessary to add shp files).

Correct icons are great news

So, units 510-511 Krakow (and Wilno if we create it) should be given icon 3488; units 512 to 523 - icon 3487; unit 538 - icon 3489.

Also unit 548 Taczanka should be given more appropriate icon 3492

Other supplements for previous comments:
400 37mm AT-Gun - its weapon #13 37mm wz.36 L45 has worse performance, than identical tank gun #15 37mm wz.37 L45, without a reason. They should be the same, with penetration 5 at least (as I've mentioned before, their performance might justify increasing penetration to 6 IMO - for all countries. Their performance figures are rarely given, but they are generally better, than PaK-35/36 - see eg. Jaeger platoon http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_GUNS1.htm ).


There might be created a formation available in 9/39 only: 'Dubno' Half-Co (a "half-company" of Dubno group), with one platoon of 3 R-35 and one platoon of 3 H-38(H-35). A commander would be given 368 Polski Fiat 508.


Next comments:

561, 562 Wz.28 (available in 9/39) - they should be given other class, so that they can't be chosen in armoured car squadrons (there were only 3 left in 1939). Maybe 230 Colonial AC, with an appropriate platoon (named eg. just "Wz.28 platoon").

Probably in 1939 there only remained MG-armed version, but this is my educated assumption (all but 3 cars had been converted to wz.34, so probably all gun-armed cars were converted). In any case there could remain no more, than one gun-armed.

Name could be changed to Wz.28 Citroen (they were sometimes known as Citroens, also in documents, due to Citroen-Kegresse chassis). This name was in fact also used sometimes for wz.34 car, but not in any modern publications.

563, 564 Peugot M1918 - they were used by the Army until 1935 at least (http://derela.republika.pl/peugeot.htm) (now 12/31)
Photo 29490 of unit 564 actually is MG-armed car - correct is 29488.

These cars were actually known just as Peugeots, and their proper designation is unknown (they were wartime models, so often used "1918" is not correct, and wasn't official in Poland). Maybe MG-armed one should be named Peugeot AM, and gun-armed Peugeot AC, according to French nomenclature? Or gun-armed one should be named Peugeot (37mm)


567 Peugot M1918 - name as above. Better action photo for MG-armed version is 29490

573 Peugot M1918 - name as above. Crew was 4(5).

568 Wz.28 - Could be used until 12/36 at least, like units 664-665 (12/34). Name as 561.

663 Wz.28 - as above.

664, 665 Wz.28 I - there was no such designation - we may call it Wz.28 (late). I'll try to find better pictures. There's no reason for 665 to have rangefinder.
Light sloping of rear 8 mm plate does not justify armour=2 IMO. In fact, all wz.28 cars had similarly thin armour at front (now 2).

.

[Pibwl]

I'm attaching several improved or proposed pictures.

(An attached Autoblinda AB-41 is Polish indeed.)