Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[Pibwl]

540 Wibault 7 - full name, according to Morgała, is Wibault 70C1

541 Lublin XIX [AOP aircraft] - to be removed - it was only a prototype, while we have a series of real Lublin XIIIs (besides, a picture and icon show Fokker C.V).


547 37mm Portee - such vehicles were used by the Polish only starting from combat at Tobruk, in 8/41 to around 12/42 (now: 1/37 - 10/39).
Better photo for 37mm is 27588 (current one shows 2pdr).
Maybe it should be given some SMG, eg 237 Sten for self-defence?

Needs change in formation #152, as its only unit - or maybe it should be reclassified as class 19 TD, made available until 10/43, and then it would be the first vehicle in formations: 088 SP-AT Section, 089 SP-AT Troop (earlier I proposed M10 3in as the earliest unit, since 11/43).


548 Taczanka [SP Flak] - .30 AAMG should be changed to proposed wz.30 AAMG.
I'll attach a picture of typical Polish taczanka (a current one is not Polish)

550 Maxim HMG Pl - all 7.62mm Maxims were withdrawn by the end of 1920s. Unless someone wants to play 1920 war, then it might be kept until 12/30.

There could be added .30 Browning 1919 MMG, used in Italy from some 11/43 until the end (radio=x1).


552 7TP [prototype tank] - it is a fiction category, but to be precise, a prototype with 37mm gun was completed in early 1937 (now 10/36)

553 Wz.31 [prototype tank] - icon looks nice, but there wasn't even built a prototype (and specifications were not much improvement over wz.29 armoured car). I'd remove it.

554 PZInz 130 - photo is Vickers Amphibian tank - I'll attach a better one - or something might be picked from http://derela.republika.pl/en/pzinz130.htm
Depending on sources, it could swim 7-10 km/h, so water speed 2 could be increased. However, armour was only up to 8 mm (now 2).

555 PZInz 130 - speed and armour as above

556 10TP - no sabot.

.

[Pibwl]

A bit more on artillery, mostly used by the Poles in North Africa:

401 25mm AT-Gun - should be available until 8/40 at least (the Polish Carpathian Bde took its guns from Syria to Palestine, and then lent them to the British).
Reportedly they were used until 1942 for training in the UK, but it's not worth adding I guess.

There should be added:
- 37mm AT-Gun available from some 1/41 until at least 5/42 - they were used in action at Tobruk (radio 92).
It could be copied from unit 400, but with #242 .303 rifle and maybe #88 Mills.

- 47mm AT-Gun - captured Italian Breda, available from 8/41 until some 5/42 (unit #578 in the British oob, along with its weapon).

- 20mm AA-Gun - captured Italian Breda, available from 8/41 until 5/42 (unit #748 in the British oob, along with its weapon).

- some Italian field guns used at Tobruk, presumably 75/32 FG (unit #029 from Italy, along with its weapon, with range corrected to 203 - 12.5 km) - used in 8/41 - 12/41 at least

- 65mm Mtn Gun used in 5/40 - ? (presumably 12/40)
It could be copied from unit 409, but with #176 Berthier rifle.
I've written before, that unit 409 should be available until 10/39 only (it has a Polish rifle BTW).

Formation 338 Infantry Guns should end at 10/39, and there should be another one in accordance with new unit, named Mountain guns.

- 18 Pdr Howitzer used around 8/40 - 5/41
(unit #127 from the British OOB, along with its weapon; radio 91)

There also could be added 75mm Mk.I FG (#627 in the British OOB), used for training in the UK, but not necessarily.

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

A bit more on artillery, mostly used by the Poles in North Africa:

- some Italian field guns used at Tobruk, presumably 75/32 FG (unit #029 from Italy, along with its weapon, with range corrected to 203 - 12.5 km) - used in 8/41 - 12/41 at least

Actually they were probably 75/27 M.906 or M.911 WW1 vintage field guns, which were much more common than the new 75/32 during the whole war, but especially in 1940-1941. Too bad the current Italian OOB does not have them at all as field artillery pieces, since they were only the most common artillery pieces in Italian service (yes, I know, poor sources in the 1990s). Strangely enough they do appear as vehicle mounted guns...

Could have also been ex-Austro-Hungarian 77/28 M.05 field guns (8cm Feldkanone M.5), which equipped the Italian colonial artillery units in North Africa. No, it isn't in the Italian OOB either.

[Pibwl]

558 14TP - it is a very "what if" unit (see http://derela.republika.pl/en/10tp.htm ). It was supposed to be equipped with 47mm gun, but only on later stage, and there was no such gun available in 1939. If it would have been built, it would have #15 37 mm - unless we want to create a future tank.
On the other hand, hull armour was to be strengthened - according to (speculative) publications, even to 50 mm in front.

559 H-39 / SA18 [prototype tank] - I've already mentioned at unit 477 H-35, that three H-35s (or H-38s) were used in combat in 9/39, and their training use in 1940 is negligible, so there should be only one unit left of these two. It should not be Prototype tank class, so that they are used in a whole platoon (I suggested class 102 Cruiser tank).
Its armament should be #142 or #143 gun, not #12 with old AP round.
Icons of unit 559 are long-barrel, so more appropriate is unit 477 (icon 171).

560 75mm wz.97/25 [fortification] - if it is fortification, it should be 75mm wz.1922/24, used in coastal defence, since 1/30 (now 1/35). It was a French naval AA gun, with L/50 length, corresponding with a weapon #133 75mm L50 m.25 (wz.1897/25 was an obsolete mle.1897 AA variant, with shorter barrel)

There could be added Polish modern 75mm wz.1936 AA gun, as a Heavy AT gun, with similar performance (L/50), used since 1/38 (formations could have own C4P tractors). Picture as for now could be 36926.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

Actually they were probably 75/27 M.906 or M.911 WW1 vintage field guns, which were much more common than the new 75/32 during the whole war, but especially in 1940-1941. Too bad the current Italian OOB does not have them at all as field artillery pieces, since they were only the most common artillery pieces in Italian service (...)

Thanks for a comment. With 25pdrs and captured material, the Carpathian Light Artillery Regiment in Tobruk grew to 52 guns, but unfortunately, no one writes (and probably no one will know), what these guns were. They had to be left in Tobruk by the Italians in 1940. Curiously, there are photos, reportedly from Tobruk, of Polish soldiers manning German Pak-38 and probably ex-Soviet M.1936 F-22USV (and Australians manning Pak-38 as well), but I guess, that German guns shouldn't be available there in 1941. Maybe they are from a later date.

As for 75/27 in Italian oob - it is another story, but now there is unit 030 Obice da 75L25. I can't find such gun, so probably it should be just 75/27.

PS. I've just "discovered", that picture 127 is 75/32 modello 37. Then, what gun is on picture 301, multiplied in many sources as Italian field gun?.. Mountain 75/18 modello 35?

Michal

[Pibwl]

Self answer - I've found in Hogg's book, that picture 301, used for field guns since SP-1, is indeed described as 75/18 modello 35. An Italian oob will need separate thread.

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Thanks for a comment. With 25pdrs and captured material, the Carpathian Light Artillery Regiment in Tobruk grew to 52 guns, but unfortunately, no one writes (and probably no one will know), what these guns were. They had to be left in Tobruk by the Italians in 1940. Curiously, there are photos, reportedly from Tobruk, of Polish soldiers manning German Pak-38 and probably ex-Soviet M.1936 F-22USV (and Australians manning Pak-38 as well), but I guess, that German guns shouldn't be available there in 1941. Maybe they are from a later date.

As for 75/27 in Italian oob - it is another story, but now there is unit 030 Obice da 75L25. I can't find such gun, so probably it should be just 75/27.

Michal

Of course in reality there were two different 75/27 models: the Krupp-designed 906 (or just 06) gun and the 911 (11). The latter was the famous Déport gun, the first production field gun with a split trail. The ballistic properties of those guns were relatively similar after the Italians modified the 06 for higher elevations. The image 36901 does not seem to be neither one of those guns and frankly I don't know what it is.

As for the PaK38 in Tobruk: the Italians did order PaK38 AT guns from Germany in summer 1940, but to my knowledge they were delivered only in 1942, because the Germans could not spare them earlier. The DAK of course had them, but presumably not the Italians. Then again, there is a lot of murky corners in Italian WW2 weapons history, especially if one does not have access to printed Italian language sources. Since year 2000 there has been great books published in English about Italian tanks and other vehicles, but artillery is a less popular subject with less sources available.