Question about Ukraine OOB...

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...ukrainian.html

52 M2A2 Bradley ODS-SA: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3 and 4, destroyed) (5, destroyed) (6, destroyed) (7, 8, 9 and 10, destroyed) (11, destroyed) (12, destroyed) (13, destroyed) (14, destroyed) (15, destroyed) (16, destroyed) (17, destroyed) (18, destroyed) (19, destroyed) (20, destroyed) (21, destroyed) (22, destroyed) (23, destroyed) (24, destroyed) (25, destroyed) (26, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, 4, and 5, damaged) (6, damaged) (7, damaged) (8 and 9, damaged) (10, damaged) (11, damaged) (12, damaged) (13 and 14, damaged) (15 and 16, damaged) (17, damaged) (18, damaged) (19, damaged) (20, damaged) (21, damaged) (1, 2 and 3, damaged and abandoned) (4, damaged and abandoned) (5, damaged and abandoned)

Being abandoned does not prove it was originally operational, almost the opposite.

Anyway as I already said people are free to construct their own scenarios as they wish, I just wouldn't consider it realistic to have major Ukrainian tank and apc forces.

And my other point is that it's a tank game. Infantry shouldn't even be in the game. Although I understand it has to be, the focus of the game is on tanks.

Ukraine right now is a red green "buy everything" oob. The only oobs that exist in real life are red and green. Western forces vs eastern forces. These are Afghanistan, Kurds, Syria, all the obscure factions that have imported equipment. This is the only way things can work.

Not to be political but Ukraine isn't a real country. It was not included in the original country because it's just a pass through for other countries to dump equipment on. Having Ukraine as an OOB just ends up being a "buy everything" OOB, just like the Taliban or vietnam is a "buy everything" OOB, because of captured equipment. Wherever the war is happening becomes the "buy everything" OOB which is why I suggested, if you want Ukraine to mean anything, you stick to equipment it actually has.

And yes, the Bradley has seen limited use, according to your own sources most of them were abandoned.

There are two possible directions to go with the Ukraine OOB. Either limit it to equipment it has in large numbers or that it made itself (to my awareness it hasn't made any significant weapons), or just get rid of the Ukraine OOB and make it the "buy everything" OOB. The direction the game is heading now is to just make Ukraine the red-green "buy everything" flag because if a country has a major war and lots of equipment is captured AND you count every minor thing used 10 times as a unit, you just end up with everything.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Being abandoned does not prove it was originally operational, almost the opposite.

52 M2A2 ODS Bradleys lost/damaged/abandoned is a lot more than a "handful" in contact. The original tranche of Bradleys which was announced in January 2023 was for 109 M2A2-ODS-SA and 4 Bradley-FIST variants.

I just wouldn't consider it realistic to have major Ukrainian tank and apc forces.

Very confused right now.

https://twitter.com/AlexRaptor94/sta...27249921741202

that's a lot of Leopard 2's in AFU service.

Ukraine right now is a red green "buy everything" oob.

Of course they are. They're buying anything that can be reasonably delivered with full technical support packages.

Not to be political but Ukraine isn't a real country. It was not included in the original country because it's just a pass through for other countries to dump equipment on.

1.) In 2005-2006 Ukraine had 3,784 MBTs, 3,043 AIFVs, 8,492 APCs, 1,143 Towed Guns, 1,298 SP Guns, and 200+ Mi-24 HINDs, along with 40 x Mi-6 HOOK and 300+ Mi-8 HIP transport helicopters, as well as 400~ mobile tactical SAM systems and 400+ combat aircraft of all types, plus 800+ strategic heavy SAM systems.

2.) In the original SP2 and SP3 days in the late 1990s; a good number of scenarios made involved Ukraine; as it was a potential fUSSR flashpoint.

Ergo, it made sense for Ukraine to be included in SP:MBT when it was being developed into WinSPMBT.

And yes, the Bradley has seen limited use, according to your own sources most of them were abandoned.

The US has officially pledged up to 186 M2 Bradleys; unofficially, now that the AFU has established units of the type as well as a spare parts line; they have an unlimited credit line on US Bradleys.

It makes no difference if AFU loses 50, 100 or all 186 M2s pledged, as the US will simply pull more M2s and refurbish them as needed to keep AFU "topped up". This isn't possible with the European NATO stockpiles; as due to the CFE treaty, everything in Europe over a certain limit had to be destroyed, so there's no huge stockpile of Leopard 1s or 2s left over from 1992 the way there is with US Abrams and Bradleys.

Only the US and Russia were able to "cheat" by moving their stockpiles out of the "European" zone.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

52 M2A2 ODS Bradleys lost/damaged/abandoned is a lot more than a "handful" in contact. The original tranche of Bradleys which was announced in January 2023 was for 109 M2A2-ODS-SA and 4 Bradley-FIST variants.

Your source does not say they were damaged in combat. Many, maybe 90% of vehicles historically are lost in accidents or other problems outside of combat.

I just wouldn't consider it realistic to have major Ukrainian tank and apc forces.

Very confused right now.

https://twitter.com/AlexRaptor94/sta...27249921741202

that's a lot of Leopard 2's in AFU service.

I am fine with including the leopard 2a4 because Ukraine has no other tanks. It's soviet tanks are mostly obsolete. The 2a4 is the only tank it really has.

The 2a6 and other tanks are not available in number.

Of course they are. They're buying anything that can be reasonably delivered with full technical support packages.

It undermines the concept of what an OOB is, you might as well include everything because Ukraine can refurbish a IS2 and call it operational.

Not to be political but Ukraine isn't a real country. It was not included in the original country because it's just a pass through for other countries to dump equipment on.


1.) In 2005-2006 Ukraine had 3,784 MBTs, 3,043 AIFVs, 8,492 APCs, 1,143 Towed Guns, 1,298 SP Guns, and 200+ Mi-24 HINDs, along with 40 x Mi-6 HOOK and 300+ Mi-8 HIP transport helicopters, as well as 400~ mobile tactical SAM systems and 400+ combat aircraft of all types, plus 800+ strategic heavy SAM systems.

2.) In the original SP2 and SP3 days in the late 1990s; a good number of scenarios made involved Ukraine; as it was a potential fUSSR flashpoint.

Ergo, it made sense for Ukraine to be included in SP:MBT when it was being developed into WinSPMBT.

That is fine if you include the huge t55 and bmp 1 fleet of obsolete vehicles but I am just talking about their modern equipment.

And yes, the Bradley has seen limited use, according to your own sources most of them were abandoned.

The US has officially pledged up to 186 M2 Bradleys; unofficially, now that the AFU has established units of the type as well as a spare parts line; they have an unlimited credit line on US Bradleys.

It makes no difference if AFU loses 50, 100 or all 186 M2s pledged, as the US will simply pull more M2s and refurbish them as needed to keep AFU "topped up". This isn't possible with the European NATO stockpiles; as due to the CFE treaty, everything in Europe over a certain limit had to be destroyed, so there's no huge stockpile of Leopard 1s or 2s left over from 1992 the way there is with US Abrams and Bradleys.

Only the US and Russia were able to "cheat" by moving their stockpiles out of the "European" zone.

I do not think Ukraine has anywhere near an unlimited credit line, and that is the real issue here. If 2024 comes around and they aren't receiving more equipment then the underwhelming US support for Ukraine will be more obvious. We will wait and see.