AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by God Emperor:
@Master Belisarius,
Just a note, all Klingon ships carry minesweeper elements. Are you suggesting though that the AI waits until it has a certain number of Minesweeper ships though before it will tackle a known minefield?

Yep, I saw the ships designes with minesweepers, but also with cloak devices, then:

1) Are you sure that the AI decloak the ATTACK ships, before go through a minefield? (I know that the AI does it with the MINESWEEPERS SHIPS, and doubt that would be smart enough to do it with ATTACK ships). But I can see another problem: if the attack ships find a minefield not reported yet, the minesweepers will be useless because can't sweep mines while are cloaked.

2) Into the settings.txt, the Klingons have:

Ships don't move through minefields := True

It mean that these large fleets with ATTACK ships with minesweepers DEVICES, never will try to go through a warp point if know that at the other side does exist mines... They will wait until a MINESWEEPER SHIP could clean the minefield before go there.

Some modders, have changed this settings to "False".
To my taste, I like this setting in "True", because if not, the AI like to send fleets to commit suicide, sending ships without minesweepers DEVICES or lack of it...
But if you put it "True", then, the MINESWEEPERS SHIPS are a MUST BE.

[ November 20, 2002, 13:57: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Rexxx]

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Has anyone been playing against the Rage outside of this test? If so, what are your impressions?

I often met them during my EEE test games (different quadrants, no up to medium bonus, high
diffculty, TDM-races).
If anyone survive the first onslaught of your Rage the fortunes of war change. I think the Rage "kill" themselves by fighting almost every race they meet. They are bleeding out literally....
Probably the price for making them so aggressive.

Is it possible that the Rage research mines relatively late? After the EEE had deployed their first minefields (they research mines very early), they can relax for several years, crippling the expansion of the Rage at least in their direction for this time.

The fleets of the Rage are deadly in early game, a lot of ships. But I never met many fleets. The EEE could glass lots of planets before running into one of them. When they met one, well, very bad luck and some new construction orders.

Later in the game lack of technology becomes an issue. Maybe it comes from this "bleeding out".

According to my experiences it is true when I say: the later I met the Rage the better. To be honest I used (and use) them to test my AIs in early game. If you survive the first and second year after making First Contact with the Primary Sequencer (in his usual mood) you know that your race is doing fine.

After two games against your new Version I would say these impressions are still valid.

I cannot say anything about the expansion issue GE mentioned. Don't work with rock/ice planet races.

Regards
R.

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by Rexxx:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Has anyone been playing against the Rage outside of this test? If so, what are your impressions?

I often met them during my EEE test games (different quadrants, no up to medium bonus, high
diffculty, TDM-races).
If anyone survive the first onslaught of your Rage the fortunes of war change. I think the Rage "kill" themselves by fighting almost every race they meet. They are bleeding out literally....
Probably the price for making them so aggressive.

Is it possible that the Rage research mines relatively late? After the EEE had deployed their first minefields (they research mines very early), they can relax for several years, crippling the expansion of the Rage at least in their direction for this time.

The fleets of the Rage are deadly in early game, a lot of ships. But I never met many fleets. The EEE could glass lots of planets before running into one of them. When they met one, well, very bad luck and some new construction orders.

Later in the game lack of technology becomes an issue. Maybe it comes from this "bleeding out".

According to my experiences it is true when I say: the later I met the Rage the better. To be honest I used (and use) them to test my AIs in early game. If you survive the first and second year after making First Contact with the Primary Sequencer (in his usual mood) you know that your race is doing fine.

After two games against your new Version I would say these impressions are still valid.

I cannot say anything about the expansion issue GE mentioned. Don't work with rock/ice planet races.

Regards
R.

---

Interesting observations. I was aware of, and accepted, the problem of falling behind by not having trade relations with other races, but that shouldn't have an effect in a one-on-one game. You may be right about not researching mines early enough. Also, in this game, there is a fair distance between the two opponents, which gives more time for the Rage's opponent to develop. Another map related issue may be the number of moons on the map. It seems like there are less than an average number, and the Rage flourish on maps with more moons. I think I do need to look at the number of fleets issue. I had messed around with those settings early in the developement of the Rage, and I may have made them build too few large fleets. I will have to investigate that. I also need to make sure that they maintain a good expansion rate.

[Master Belisarius]

Alpha wrote: "Another map related issue may be the number of moons on the map. It seems
like there are less than an average number, and the Rage flourish on maps
with more moons."

I did the map with the idea that everybody should have similar opportunities to colonize planets... a big problem when you consider that doesn't exist Gas Giant planets with "None" as atmosphere!

To compensate this, was because I have included 2 moons without atmosphere (one rock and the other ice) per system.
Then, think the Rage still had more opportunities to develop in the EARLY game than the other races, because had 1 more breathable planet per system, but less opportunities to build facilities when "ICE" and "GAS" colonizations are
available later.

In the early game:
Standard Rock Race with "Advanced Storage Techniques"
1 Breathable with 18 facilities.
1 Non-Breathable moon with 1 facility.
4 Non-Breathable planets with 3 facilities.
Total = 18 + 1 + (4*3) = 31 facilites

Rock Race with "No atmosphere" and "Advanced Storage Techniques"
1 planet NO atmosphere with 18 facilities.
1 moon with 6 facilities.
4 Non-Breathable planets with 3 facilities.

Total = 18 + 6 + (4*3) = 36 facilites per system.

Every race had 7 nearest systems available to colonize, the Rage had available 7 * 5 = 35 extra facilities to build in the early game, if they where able to colonize these systems and keep them. Then, don't think one of the reasons was the lack of space to colonize.

Considering that the Rage doesn't lost the game in the late game, the reason in my view (and of course it not mean that I'm right!), was mostly, what God Emperor wrote: expansion.

It can justify, how in the turn 50, the Toron was able to have colonies in all the nearest systems and 42 planets. At the same turn, the Rage only had 22 planets and has not colonies in Abrion, Butukret and Rove.

Ok, maybe the Rage research mines something later, or had bad luck to be in a group with 2 strong races like Toron and EA, but the main reason think was the expansion rate. Something vital in a map where it's no room to expand, if it's not going against the enemy.

[Master Belisarius]

Here the link to see the game between Jraenar vs Klingons.

Jraenar_vs_Klingon_G5.zip

Now, I'm starting the game between SWEmpire and Narn.

[Master Belisarius]

The Narn defeated the Star Wars Empire... the Empire surrendered their Last planets.
Think the Empire has very big problems in the ship designs: some of them has not Sensors, and others has no ECM...

Here the link: SWEmpire_vs_Narn_G6.zip

Now I'm doing the Last game for the second wave: Shadows_Vs_Romulans

Edit: the Romulans has the same problem of the Klingons/Jraenar with the mines... But the Shadows have lots of minesweeper ships, then, hope this will be NOT another game until the turn 500.
Turn 142 and the Shadows are ahead in the numbers... and without minesweeper ships, think the Romulans will play a lost battle.

Turn 151 an at least the Romulans built a lone minesweeper... that will die trying to clean a minefiled at Aargau... Think that the difference it's that they're not out of supplies like the Jraenar/Klingons were.

Turn 219 and although the Romulans can't go into the Shadows territory, they have killed 2 large fleets without loses, and now are first!

Turn 395 and nothing new... Both races out of supplies and without fight.
Think that the God Emperor's races would work better with Medium or High bonus...

Turn 500. Game over and the Romulans wins by a short margin! They managed to open a hole into Shadow's territory and killed most planets at Aargau. But the Shadows attacked at Abrion. Then, both races finished with lots of riots and with very close victory points: 798K vs 746K.
Here the link:
Shadows_vs_Romulan_G6.zip

[ November 21, 2002, 01:44: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[God Emperor]

MB,
Thanks for the report regarding minesweepers. Looks like I will have to advance them a bit further in the AI_Construction queue.

Regards,
GE