Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41

[Kuritza]

Duel requires a pearl and is dangerous for the caster. Control does not and is not.
Furthermore, CB 1.41 doesnt exclude magic duel; it gives yet another option for dealing with magic beings.
Btw, poison golems cant be magic dueled, yet they are very much controllable.
Magic resistance fails surprisingly often in real games. In Querty, I've seen Devils fail MR 25 on the second check or so, twice in a row. So when you have a whole communion of lizard shamans spamming Control, there's a very, very fat chance all your magic beings within melee range will happily desert. Good luck fighting with markatas without supporting thugs.

[Sombre]

Setting up big reverse communions of lizard shamans is a pretty big cost in and of itself. I don't know anything about this control problem in CBM though so I definitely can't disagree. It's true that mr checks can be really weird.

[Kuritza]

Change lizard shamans in my example to stargazers, star children and whatever cheap national S1 you like - it will get much cheaper.
I just dont understand why Control should be easier to cast than Mind control. Its not like magic beings need yet another single-target counter.

Better buff Unravelling somehow for the purpose of beating massed magic beings; right now its competly useless. Puts 'decay' effect of magic beings (they tend to have 1000+ lifespans, so good luck getting ANY effect with that) and feebleminds your own mages.

[VedalkenBear]

I have to say, I seem to do pretty okay with Bandar Log without _having_ to use the Gandharvas. Of course, I do play SP, pretty much.

I do like running around with an entirely Abysian army, though. And using a Warlock Apprentice to bootstrap me into Blood.

[llamabeast]

Summary: The zip in the first post has been changed slightly, but there's no need to download it because the change is very minor. The Blindlord bug is fixed though, so you may want it for that reason.

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Long version:

I have modified CBMcomplete_1.41.dm in the zip in the first post, with QM's permission.

Due to the slightly different way that dominions loads mods in text mode, the original version was not compatible with the llamaserver; I fixed it at the time and ever since the LlamaServer has been running a different version to all the players. Being as the change was very minor this has never been an issue, however it can affect spells in mod nations, and has now done so in Lapis.

So, I've tidied the LlamaServer version and uploaded it. I also used the opportunity to fix the Blindlord Air-8 bug. He now has Holy-1 as intended.

[mindlar]

I was looking at the prices for some of the blood summons and was confused by the prices of some of the spells.

Bind Fiend costs 2, Bind Devil costs 3, Bind Frost Fiend costs 2, Bind Storm Demon costs 3, Bind Demon Knight costs 5. Ritual of Five Gates costs 28 slaves (13 more than the individual summons), requires 3 more blood than the individual summons, and requires 2 more levels of research.

I'm sure there is a reason that Ritual of Five Gates costs almost twice as many blood slaves as the individual summons, but I can't think of any other than the reduced amount of mage time required.

A similar issue arises with the level 9 spells: Infernal Forces (50 blood slaves for 7+ devils), Infernal Tempest (50 blood for 7+ storm demons), Forces of Ice (50 blood for 8+ frost fiends), Forces of Darkness (50 blood for 14+ fiends). Infernal Crusade (50 blood for 10+ knights) is the only one which potentially presents a cost savings.

[Jazzepi]

Those spells really are only there to save you mage time.

Jazzepi

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by mindlar

Bind Fiend costs 2, Bind Devil costs 3, Bind Frost Fiend costs 2, Bind Storm Demon costs 3, Bind Demon Knight costs 5. Ritual of Five Gates costs 28 slaves (13 more than the individual summons), requires 3 more blood than the individual summons, and requires 2 more levels of research.

Originally Posted by Endoperez

Saving time of Blood mages can (at least theoretically) be transformed into increased slave income. I believe 4 B2 mages hunting instead of casting wcouldn't have much trouble catching more than 13 slaves per turn.

Originally Posted by Jazzepi

Those spells really are only there to save you mage time.

Jazzepi

Ehhh, in Vanilla, a Fiend of Darkness costs 5, I believe all others cost you 7 slaves apiece. Adding a couple of extra boosters, then pushes efficiency for the high end spells significantly higher than the single cast spells.

2-3 slaves I believe is really much too cheap, I mean over a 50% discount from Vanilla, on units that see a lot of play even at full price.....?

Yeah sure, you can open up other blood hunting provinces, of course. But, most people would want to saturate to the point that the rate of blood income to gold income gives them the most satisfactory results. In many cases, this would indicate it to be easier to just Monthly cast the low level versions of the spells. This warps the blood economy a bit, making the big spells a very big trade-off, rather than a no-brainer.

Can't believe I didn't notice this myself. o.O

[Huzurdaddi]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

2-3 slaves I believe is really much too cheap, I mean over a 50% discount from Vanilla, on units that see a lot of play even at full price.....?

Sure devils see a lot of play at full price, but where do those units come from? Usually from the higher levels spells: ritual of the five gates, the level 9 spells, and soul contracts. I think that making these lower level summon cheap was a brilliant move by QM as it adds new strategies.

I also don't think it is overpowered at all. In the early game mage turns are at a premium and dedicating a decent mage (in many, but not all, cases a capital only mage to monthly casting a ritual is expensive).

I do have one question though, and it is not directly related to the change in blood summons (although it is in a way). It seems, that even with these changes, that people still prefer to use their gems to forge items for thugs than summon troops. Perhaps it is time to go back to addressing the cost of some of the really popular items in the game, such as:

Dwarven Hammer
Frost Brand
Vine Shield
Eye Shield
Anti-magic amulet
Lucky pendant

(I am sure that there are many more). These items are forged, in great quantity, in most games. For good reason, they are fantastic bargains. Maybe that needs to be addressed? I know that QM tried to fix the cost on the dwarven hammer and people rebelled, but now that them mod is so very good maybe now is the time to try it again?

[chrispedersen]

Ref boosters:

One of the interesting aspects of the game is that empowering is so expensive, and booster items so cheap. AND booster items can be handed around.

Changing that has long been a pet idea of mine - but the game implications are really strong - not that strong is a bad thing - but it may be the thing with the biggest single change to the game.

Boosting the cost of all boosters (say by 50), changes the value of cross path mages. Changes the relative strengths of nations; increases the value of gems, delays the onset into mid and late game.