The harm that software pirates do

[Possum]

OK, OK, I admit it, I'm biased. My family is portugese. My great-grandfather was named Luis Antonio Gonsalves, and he was born on the island of Flores, in the Azores

[Ubik]

Oh! Possum! Dont say that!

As everybody knows there are no coincidences, they will start accusing BOTH of us of making a large scale software pirate business with links to the Russian Mafia, the Triads and Saddam Hussein! ;-)

Azores is a beautiful archipelago. The people are really nice there.
Unfortunately, I was born and live in Lisbon, a place far less attractive to live.

I travel a lot and its really weird as being such a small country, how can always exist a Portuguese soul or descendent in the world. But well, our past History is far greater than our actual size. ;-)

Nice to hear from you!
...and thanks for your support! We the Portuguese large scale software pirates must always stick together! ;-)))


Regards,

Carlos Gustavo Rodrigues

[Possum]

Ubik, ROFL!

But back to SE4.

I'm curious, how did you hear about it initially? I honestly can't remember how I first stumbled on it.

Is SE4 available in Languages other than English? I recall that my copy of Civ2 came with the option to install it in English, German, or French; is SE4 like that?

I speak semi-fluent conversational spanish, (your english is obviously far better than that), but the idea of trying to play a game entirely in spanish intimidates me severely. How does one deal with playing a game, and reading the rules and such, in a language other than one's own?

[geoschmo]

Ubik,

At the risk of permanantly labeling myself as an "old-fuddy duddy" I feel I must speak my mind about this.

Whether or not you purchased a copy of SEIV legitimately is irrelevant.

You humorous responses about conspiracies and Portuguese pirating are also irrelevant and misdirecting.

The fact that you purchased a copy does not entitle you to emailing or receiving copies of the .exe file. That remains the legally protected intellectual property of Malfador. Your purchase fee only entitles you to use the game. It does not transfer actual ownership of anything except the pLastic content of the CD the software came on.

Of course no-one is going to get rich pirating a game like SEIV, but even small scale copying like this can set a precedent which could destroy a game like this.

The fact remains that your request for the .exe file was wrong. You participated in illegal behavior, however trivial in your mind, and encouraged illegal behavior in others.

The ramifications of your actions may not be clear to you, but they are obvious to me. There may be individuals reading these forums that are considering the purchase of this game. They may not realize before seeing your post how easy it is to steal a game like this.

The real nightmare for game designers is not the "Large-scale Pirates". It is the public's general attitude that seems to be that if it can be copied, it's ok to copy it.

For whatever reason, technical or economic, Aaron decided not to copy protect the retail Version of the game. The fact that he did not however does not give anyone the "right" to copy it, any more than leaving my front door unlocked gives anyone the "right" to come in uninvited.

When all is said and done, you could have simply waited till you got home and got your purchased copy.

Geo

[Possum]

Geoschmo,

No, I don't think you are an old fuddy-duddy. I think you are a decent and honorable man who is righteously outraged by the dishonesty of others.

But, with all due courtesy, I also think you are barking up the wrong tree in this particular instance.

I stated unequivocally that Ubik really should not have asked for or been sent the EXE. Ubik admitted, at least by implication, that this was so.

But one of the main issues in any piracy case is "intent to defraud", and since Ubik is a licensee of SE4, there was clearly no such intent.

Geo, Ubik has posted here repeatedly, and admitted in print what he did. Every time he Posts here, his IP address is recorded permanently. He lives in europe, where the software piracy enforcement agency is far more fierce than its American counterpart, with even more sweeping powers of search, arrest, and seizure. If he was a pirate, all Shrapnel would have to do is drop a line to the euro piracy agency, with his IP address or addresses, and his goose would be severely cooked.

Now, whatever you may suspect about Ubik's morals, the man is obviously not stupid. If he was a pirate, there is no way he would expose and incriminate himself like that.

Please, Geo, take another look at the title of this thread, and who started it

NOBODY here is condoning software piracy, in any way, shape, or form!

[Triumvir Emphy]

I was born and raised in Europe, most countries in europe have a 50% english speaker rate, with some countries like Holland and Germany as high as 78%. Software piracy is (just like soft drugs) usually ignored except for large scale blatent offenses.

While Ubik my have a purchased copy or that he posted his address or that his ip address is "recorded" is all besides the point.

ip address recorded,... 99.9% of all dialups are assigned a random ip address from a pool usually a class c (256 addresses) from an isp. so we can narrow it down to a city,....

I agree with Geoschmo, while a large company like microsoft is probably not hurt, a small one man operation is, this is not napster(an other can of worms).

No doubt Ubik works computer related, wonder what his company would do if customers started swapping his products.

By buying the game legally you provide MM the chance to provide us service by getting us updates and patches,... look at some of the other games out there and see how many patches they post, if any ever where even released.

Again i am not saying Ubik is doing anything illegal, although i do believe he is being careless, anybody part of the se4@yahooGroups mailing list will no doubt have had recieved several requests from people to end them your exe file.

[Nitram Draw]

I think I get what you are saying Possum.
We are all against it and we all have preconcieved notions about software pirates. We generally suspect the worst when we see a request like Ubik's. It is good to be cautious but we should not jump the gun.
I believe him. I think he just went about asking for help in the wrong way. He should have gone directly to MM/Shrapnel and probably would have gotten what he wanted if he had purchased the game once.

[geoschmo]

Possum,

I have no quarrel with you or anything you have said here. I did see that you started this thread. I thought from the title this would be the appropriate place for these comments.

I am not sure where you got from my post that I was accusing Ubik of pirating. On the contrary, my point was that pirating isn't the problem. The problem is the overall attitude people have about electronic media in general.

Your faith in Ubik is admirable, although how you have reached such a firm conclusion simply on the basis of his comments in these forums is beyond me.

However, I will say again, whether or not he legitmatly purchased a copy of SEIV is irrelevant. It does not give him the right to request a copy of the exe file. I am glad to read that he feels now it was inappropriate, although I have not seen him say that. Perhaps I just missed it?

I am not the judge of Ubik, or anyone else for that matter. I did not intend to make a statement of his morals. I am simply addressing this specific action. And I stand by what I have already said about that.

Geo

[Ubik]

To Geoshmo:
you a lawyer right? ;-)
Using your analogy, I only have to say the following... I bought the keys to your house.
You sold them to me. Unfotunately, it is lunch time and I dont have the keys with me but I really want to enter your house to take a look at your beautiful Goldenfish. I ask some other guy who bought the key to your house to borrow it to me IN FRONT OF YOUR NOSE. Some guy give it to me (THX!).

I dont know where I am wrong but legalese is not one of my spoken Languages. The problem so well explained by Possum is the climate of mistrust piracy has spread. But if you look at things the other way, what do you see?
- A guy using the message board FROM THE GAME DISTRIBUTOR is asking for the exe.
- The guy readily identifies himself AGAIN in the message board of the game distributor.
- The guy gives an uncommon address in Portugal easily tracked.
- The game distributor never posted a message warning people the name and address the guy posted is not on their database.

It seems on the side of evidence, you just have a handfull of nothing.

But I will drop a gauntlet here. I ask now that Shrapnel Games publish here a message telling the people the name and address I posted is fake (of course, there is always the next can of worms... if the name and address checks in the database, I can be other person impersonating this guy... human mistrust never ends...). I also ask that Shrapnel Games ban me from this message board as it cannot pact with a software pirate.
Until Shrapnel Games don't post the message, I am innocent of software piracy.

I think your bills have a saying as "In God We Trust". Sorry, maybe its my fault, but until proved wrong I also trust people. Maybe its cultural. Here in Portugal we are not so distrustful of each other...

I am sorry, but with so meager evidence (asking for an exe), you cannot accuse me of anything.

To Possum:

Well, we grow up learning a second language (and very few of us speak even below average spanish, as we always choose English...lets say we make ourselves understood in spanish). I am used to read and talk in English quite more than the average Portuguese. Its dificult at first because we are permanently translating the language from our native language (Portuguese in my case) to the other language. The secret is to think in the other language. You must read a lot and practice a lot. I need to know very well English because of my Master degree and my work.

I really dont know much of Spanish but I think if you post a message in Spanish, I will gladly answer it in Portuguese!

Abour SE IV... I saw this game for the first time in December, looking at Gamesdomain where the game was rated GOLD. I have never heard of it before and I am sad such a good piece of software doesnt make it in the mainstream industry...You should read the interview given by the Lead Designer of MOO3 about this same problem (www.moo3.com)... we are being led by the nose by some guys who never played a game in their life, who dont know what game design is, who dont understand criativity as there is none inside their void economicised heads. The games so many of us play are just clones of each other, the next one having more eye candy and better sounds than the Last one. I admire Aaron to have the courage to invest his time in a project like this. Because it is a very risky proposition today making a game with content. And I must congratulate the guys at Shrapnel Games to support such a nice game.
Now, if you want to see other games with content, find a game developed by a Nordic company (dont know the country)called "Europa Universalis". If you enjoy strategy games in Medieval Europe you wont be disapointed! :-)

Fica bem! (stay well in Portuguese)

Carlos Gustavo Rodrigues

P.S. - Cant recall if its "Europa Universallis" or "Europa Unniversalis" or "Europa Universalis". Search for the three options!

[Triumvir Emphy]

I am sure shrapnel has more to do than look through forums.

And even if they did, you are in a foreign country and untouchable/not worth the trouble for the small amount in question.

Distrust is good sometimes, if not, i have some swap land to sell ya.

but we may stop conversation, the horse is dead, we are making glue.