Heaven and hell - Page 2

Dracula · #11 June 20th, 2006, 10:02 AM

As I say to cbo it occurs on every range so accuracy is not the cause... well try my saved game then you will see that two units,yes different, but firing at same range (one a stug the other pzkw3)the one use he and the other ap...

thanks for the brainstorming anyway

Vince

Mobhack · #12 June 20th, 2006, 05:50 PM

Do you have that in standard zip format?.

Cheers
Andy

PatG · #13 June 20th, 2006, 06:20 PM

here you go

Mobhack · #14 June 20th, 2006, 07:08 PM

Which shows stugs, with the 75L24 HE chucker trying to engage char-b at 1250 metres, where the AP round has no chance of penetration. So as it has an HE shell with a useful HE pen, it uses that as the ammo evaluation is that this shell (mix of WH size and HE-AP value) at this range is a better bet. Might blow a track off.

The P3 HE shell is not worth firing at armour (unless it runs out of AP when it will) so it fires AP at that range.

Just as I said in the first reply, so not a bug.

Cheers
Andy

Dracula · #15 June 21st, 2006, 02:05 AM

so you tell when an AP shell has no chance of doing any damage an HE is choosed by the AI for evaluation purpose or maybe damaging tracks BUT (there is always a but

) I have then try with a pzkw3 to engaged at long distance a casemate with an frontal armour of 10 !!! an my shell has a warhead size of 2... and guess what ? The AI choose the useless AP against it so its obvious that this routine you try to explain make no sense

No offense but why in some case The AI choose HE when I "think" there is no chance for breaking armor and in other situation he keep using AP shells against a target with obviousely no chance to destroying it

And I musst say that in WINSPMBT such "routines" does not occurs...

cheers Vince

Charles22 · #16 June 21st, 2006, 02:22 AM

I would think that normally that an HE shell being fired on something which it cannot damage with AP shell is an improvement. Besides the increased chance of the track suffering damage from HE, wouldn't there be more splash chance for other units with HE? Of course it's not like the AP shell can't damage the tread either, but probably just less effective.

If this game allows for radio damage and scope damage etc., then firing HE especially in a unit HE heavy like the SGIIIB makes even more sense.

Even so, I do think it a bit odd for units with both AP and HE shots to be firing HE at a distant range, but clearly there are instances where it's the better tactic.

Marek_Tucan · #17 June 21st, 2006, 02:26 AM

Because the 37mm popgun still has, in its eyes, a larger chance of doing some damage with AP than with HE. The HE for 37mm is EXTREMELY weak, good for infantry suppression, nothing more.

StuG III: AI checks what damage can be done at that range with given types of ammo (this case AP and HE), reaches conclusion (based on AP pen, range, HE pen, WH size etc.) that the HE morelikely to cause damage at this range and fires it.
Pz III: AI checks HE and AP again and reaches conclusion that while the AP is poor, the HE is even worse, so fires AP.

Don't forget that the AP pen for both weapons are comparable but HE stats vary significantly!

cbo · #18 June 21st, 2006, 06:47 AM

Marek beat me to it, but anyway

Quote:

Dracula said:
so you tell when an AP shell has no chance of doing any damage an HE is choosed by the AI for evaluation purpose or maybe damaging tracks BUT (there is always a but

) I have then try with a pzkw3 to engaged at long distance a casemate with an frontal armour of 10 !!! an my shell has a warhead size of 2... and guess what ? The AI choose the useless AP against it so its obvious that this routine you try to explain make no sense

These are the guns in question:

- The 3.7cm gun (weapon #14) has AP penetration of 5, HE penenetration of 1 and a size 2 warhead.
- The 7.5 cm gun (weapon #44) has AP penetration of 5, HE penetration of 2 and a size 4 warhead.

The ability of HE to penetrate armour (or do damage to an armoured targets) is a function of both HE penetration value and warhead size. On the other hand, AFAIK HE pen is not dependent on range. It will do as much damage at 500 meters as it will at 2000 meters.

AP penetration will be reduced with range, as the AP round is dependent on velocity for penetration.

So, what the computer is looking for when selecting ammunition is the potential for penetration (or damage).
In case of the 3.7cm gun, it will only start using HE when the range is so long that its feeble HE round will have a better change of penetrating than its AP round. I did a small test, and it will still fire AP at a target 1500 meters away, but fire HE at a target 2000 meters away. So somewhere between 1500 meters and 2000 meters, the game decides that 3.7cm HE has a better chance of penetration (or doing damage) with HE than with AP.
In case of the 7.5cm gun, the potential for HE penetration is much bigger due to a larger warhead and higher HE Pen value. It will fire AP at a target 500 meters away, but fire HE at a target 1000 meters away.

So it is not a bug and makes perfect sense IF you look at the weapons involved.

Quote:

No offense but why in some case The AI choose HE when I "think" there is no chance for breaking armor and in other situation he keep using AP shells against a target with obviousely no chance to destroying it

And I musst say that in WINSPMBT such "routines" does not occurs...

It does happen in WinSPMBT in exactly the same way IF the circumstances are the same. But they rarely are with modern weapons and my guess would be that you wont see many of these situations in late WWII scenarios either.

If we take another look at the 3.7cm gun, it has a maximum range of 2000 meters and only start to use HE instead of AP beyond 1500 meters. So if AP penetration is slightly more, it will never start using HE because AP penetration will be superior to HE penetration right up to the maximum range.
In the Danish OOB in SPMBT, you have a 37mm anti-tank gun available with the same data as the German 3.7cm gun and it will behave exactly the same. Fire AP at a target 1500 meters away but change to HE when firing at a target 2000 meters away. In the same OOB there is an armoured car which uses another 37mm gun with slightly better AP penetration but has the same 2000 meter range. It wil always fire AP at an armoured target.
Same applies to the 7.5cm gun. The German gun in the StuG has a relatively high HE penetration value compared with its low AP penetration value because it is a large caliber gun with low muzzle velocity. But if you take another 75mm gun with higher muzzle velocity and thus higher AP penetration value, like the M24 in the Danish OOB in SPMBT, it will fire AP right up to its maximum range.

So you will see guns fire HE at armoured targets when you have large-caliber/low-velocity guns or small-caliber/high-velocity guns firing at very long ranges. You will also see it a lot when you have small-caliber/low-velocity guns which has a next-to-useless AP round like the short 37mm guns in early French tanks.

Claus B