MA Man in latest CBM

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

I look at it this way: Mothers of Avalon are recruitable everywhere, and they are supposed to commonly have warden bodyguards. So, it seems like wardens should be at least as common as the mothers.

I would have to disagree with that line of reasoning with respect to recruitment.

Having aspiring witches start out outside the Forest of Avalon assigned to the local covens and train as they grow older and wiser, traveling the world as mothers of Avalon until finally they reach an age to receive their ultimate training in Avalon itself as crones of Avalon does not in any way imply that their wardens are trained outside Avalon - from a fantasy story point of view it makes excellent sense for the wardens to be trained in just one place (or two - the Tower of Avalon in the Forest of Avalon) by those who are mighty in the arts and then being assigned to the mothers of Avalon traveling the world.

The latter interpretation also happens to fit the warden flavour text considerably better than one where the mothers' "they are often accompanied by wardens sworn to protect them" is interpreted as meaning "you can recruit armies of wardens all over the world".

Ah, well, for probably well over 9 out of 10 users of the CBM the only important thing is the mechanical performance of a nation so it should not be shocking to me that it primarily caters to its intended audience.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen

Ah, well, for probably well over 9 out of 10 users of the CBM the only important thing is the mechanical performance of a nation so it should not be shocking to me that it primarily caters to its intended audience.

I must I admit it's kind of funny being on the other side of argument, people are constantly trying to convince me to put things in CB I find thematically questionable. It's a major reason most changes are pure price tweaks.

In this case though, for reaspons that have been mentioned, that would not solve the lord warden's problems. Never seeing a unit used I find quite unthematic (and unfun). And that's apart from he fact they never specifically say they are trained in Avalon, and that the Mothers are already everywhere which, really, makes far less sense.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Calahan

While the recruit anywhere Wardens and Lord Wardens are a welcome boost for MA Man, I don't think a bless strategy can be based on them. (snip)

Cleveland did well with a E9N?A2 cyclops in a big MP game (sorry, the name escapes me), not even using CBM. A monk or two with a few Wardens can take on the PD of quite a few nations, and it's free in terms of gems.

[Foodstamp]

Originally Posted by vfb

Cleveland did well with a E9N?A2 cyclops in a big MP game (sorry, the name escapes me), not even using CBM. A monk or two with a few Wardens can take on the PD of quite a few nations, and it's free in terms of gems.

Needs more bard!

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by vfb

Cleveland did well with a E9N?A2 cyclops in a big MP game (sorry, the name escapes me), not even using CBM. A monk or two with a few Wardens can take on the PD of quite a few nations, and it's free in terms of gems.

I can certainly imagine the Wardens being a very useful raiding force, just a shame that you'd probably need such an unhelpful bless (magic path diversity wise) to get them going

Although now that the Lord Wardens are H1, probably not much point recruiting the Monks unless gold or resource contraints come into play. Since in CBM 1.6, the Lord Warden does everything a Monk does with extras.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Although now that the Lord Wardens are H1, probably not much point recruiting the Monks unless gold or resource contraints come into play. Since in CBM 1.6, the Lord Warden does everything a Monk does with extras.

Really? I'm not sure I'd pay nearly double for just being slightly more buff- unless they were for leading raid squads. I wouldn't mind making monks 25 gold though.

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

Well, the one thing to fix that is not having "better" but different troops.
Bowmen and Knights (which are Man's army according to the nation description) would both be recruited if you couldn't spend your gold on clearly better sacreds.

I find it hard to believe wardens everywhere instantly obsolete Man's longbows and knights- or even necessarily the other infantry. Look at Bandar Log, white ones are are basically the poor mans (everywhere recruitable) wardens, and they hardly define the nation. Yes, they are quite a bit worse, but they are also much easier to mass and compete against other troops which are generally much less attractive.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Really? I'm not sure I'd pay nearly double for just being slightly more buff- unless they were for leading raid squads. I wouldn't mind making monks 25 gold though.

Well to me it depends how you look at it. I'm not crazy about the idea of paying almost double just to have a unit with more buff stats, but at the same time I just don't want to recruit any Monks at all. My current MA Man experiences in Forge of Godhood shows me their only real use is building temples, as it's already well known how pathetic H1 priests are at preaching. Unless you're spamming them in which case I would go for the Monks I guess. Although can't see spamming H1 priests to be that useful, although do admit to never having tried it as far as I can remember.

And although I haven't tested it specifically with the Monks, I have doubts about their ability to safely lead stealth raiders (although as you say you would would use the Lords for raiding). Since from pasts experience I know that a H1 priest leading a handful of troops will run up behind those troops if he has nothing else to do once his hold/bless script runs out. And with no stealthy archers to "stay behind", you'd either have to give the Monk an item to use, or hope the battle is won before he gets to the front. I doubt a Lord would need such provisions.

So while double the price for a Lord Warden is unattractive, I'm not fond of the idea of paying 30gp for a more-or-less useless Monk unit. Even if they are cheap. I'd rather forget the Monk existed and say 50gp for a stealthy priest that can lead a decent sized number of troops (hence limiting the number of Indy commanders you need) and also be thugged depending on bless/equipment, isn't that bad a deal. MA Man are almost always going to be in trouble in MP games, and when trouble comes I'd rather have a bunch of Lords on hand than a bunch of Monks.


If Monks were cheaper or had a higher priest level, or better stealth etc., then I'd re-examine it. But right now I can't imagine me recruiting a Monk over a Lord if I had the money and resources for it that turn.

[Calahan]

Yes, it's a shame to go somewhat against the theme of MA Man by lessening the importance of 'Avalon' as a site and idea, but I'm not sure if there was much of a choice for the Wardens. The Lord Warden in particular.

Since there is probably little point having a national commander that would just never be recruited. Be it thematic, themed, part of a nation's soul, or whatever. And as long as the Lord Warden is up against Crones and Daughters of Avalon as a capital only unit, then it will never be seen in a MP game (at least not as part of any real plan or strategy).

The only other approach for the Lord Wardens to have a future is to make them the only capital only commander. Like they are for LA Man. But being able to recruit Daughters and Crones everywhere would probably be an even greater shift against the theme of MA Man, than doing it for the Wardens is. Not to mention boosting the power of MA Man considerably (and probably past an unwanted point).

So I think the change to the Wardens in CBM 1.6 was not only out of a desire to make MA Man more of a viable MP nation, but also to give the Wardens and Lords some genuine hope of being used. Since other attempts to improve MA Man via cheaper units, better mages etc, would have had no effect on the unused Warden problem.

[Zeldor]

MA Man still sucks anyway:

QM: I think you also forgot to make Marverni sacreds non-cap

[thejeff]

Except that the Mothers start their training in Avalon as Daughters. Then go out into the land as Mothers. That's all clear from the flavor text of the Mothers and Daughters.
A strict reading would require all three to be capital only.

The warden text actually says nothing about where they are trained. Only that they are the sacred guard of the Witches and that they've been enchanted.

I agree that the best reading is that they are all trained in Avalon, but if you exempt the Mothers, I see no reason not to exempt the Wardens as well.