MA Man in latest CBM

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Calahan

While the recruit anywhere Wardens and Lord Wardens are a welcome boost for MA Man, I don't think a bless strategy can be based on them. (snip)

Cleveland did well with a E9N?A2 cyclops in a big MP game (sorry, the name escapes me), not even using CBM. A monk or two with a few Wardens can take on the PD of quite a few nations, and it's free in terms of gems.

[Foodstamp]

Originally Posted by vfb

Cleveland did well with a E9N?A2 cyclops in a big MP game (sorry, the name escapes me), not even using CBM. A monk or two with a few Wardens can take on the PD of quite a few nations, and it's free in terms of gems.

Needs more bard!

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by vfb

Cleveland did well with a E9N?A2 cyclops in a big MP game (sorry, the name escapes me), not even using CBM. A monk or two with a few Wardens can take on the PD of quite a few nations, and it's free in terms of gems.

I can certainly imagine the Wardens being a very useful raiding force, just a shame that you'd probably need such an unhelpful bless (magic path diversity wise) to get them going

Although now that the Lord Wardens are H1, probably not much point recruiting the Monks unless gold or resource contraints come into play. Since in CBM 1.6, the Lord Warden does everything a Monk does with extras.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Although now that the Lord Wardens are H1, probably not much point recruiting the Monks unless gold or resource contraints come into play. Since in CBM 1.6, the Lord Warden does everything a Monk does with extras.

Really? I'm not sure I'd pay nearly double for just being slightly more buff- unless they were for leading raid squads. I wouldn't mind making monks 25 gold though.

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

Well, the one thing to fix that is not having "better" but different troops.
Bowmen and Knights (which are Man's army according to the nation description) would both be recruited if you couldn't spend your gold on clearly better sacreds.

I find it hard to believe wardens everywhere instantly obsolete Man's longbows and knights- or even necessarily the other infantry. Look at Bandar Log, white ones are are basically the poor mans (everywhere recruitable) wardens, and they hardly define the nation. Yes, they are quite a bit worse, but they are also much easier to mass and compete against other troops which are generally much less attractive.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Really? I'm not sure I'd pay nearly double for just being slightly more buff- unless they were for leading raid squads. I wouldn't mind making monks 25 gold though.

Well to me it depends how you look at it. I'm not crazy about the idea of paying almost double just to have a unit with more buff stats, but at the same time I just don't want to recruit any Monks at all. My current MA Man experiences in Forge of Godhood shows me their only real use is building temples, as it's already well known how pathetic H1 priests are at preaching. Unless you're spamming them in which case I would go for the Monks I guess. Although can't see spamming H1 priests to be that useful, although do admit to never having tried it as far as I can remember.

And although I haven't tested it specifically with the Monks, I have doubts about their ability to safely lead stealth raiders (although as you say you would would use the Lords for raiding). Since from pasts experience I know that a H1 priest leading a handful of troops will run up behind those troops if he has nothing else to do once his hold/bless script runs out. And with no stealthy archers to "stay behind", you'd either have to give the Monk an item to use, or hope the battle is won before he gets to the front. I doubt a Lord would need such provisions.

So while double the price for a Lord Warden is unattractive, I'm not fond of the idea of paying 30gp for a more-or-less useless Monk unit. Even if they are cheap. I'd rather forget the Monk existed and say 50gp for a stealthy priest that can lead a decent sized number of troops (hence limiting the number of Indy commanders you need) and also be thugged depending on bless/equipment, isn't that bad a deal. MA Man are almost always going to be in trouble in MP games, and when trouble comes I'd rather have a bunch of Lords on hand than a bunch of Monks.


If Monks were cheaper or had a higher priest level, or better stealth etc., then I'd re-examine it. But right now I can't imagine me recruiting a Monk over a Lord if I had the money and resources for it that turn.

[quantum_mechani]

Better stealth is also quite possible (though personally I consider that a minor consideration compared to price).

[Mojo the Avenger]

I played a cbm 1.6 game with man to see how the wardens would perform with a bless. Personally I think they did great. I think they might have some long term multiplayer potential because their natural resist is so high, but I've never played mp so from a strategy point of view I really don't know how they'd work out.

From a strict mechanics point of view they're butchers. I took W9E4F4D4, the theory being that more attacks hitting more often and distributing afflictions amongst anything tough enough to survive one hit will make 2 reinvig powerful enough for them to go the distance. Not to mention increased defense and faster battlefield movement.

They crushed anything that the computer threw at them. It wasn't even close to a fair fight.

It seems like that bless might be workable in MP. It gets you into 4 more paths, and the nation doesn't really suffer for it.

I think the total set up was dormant frost father, dom 7, T3, P3, C1, G0, L2, D2

[Illuminated One]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

I find it hard to believe wardens everywhere instantly obsolete Man's longbows and knights- or even necessarily the other infantry. Look at Bandar Log, white ones are are basically the poor mans (everywhere recruitable) wardens, and they hardly define the nation. Yes, they are quite a bit worse, but they are also much easier to mass and compete against other troops which are generally much less attractive.

Hmm, if their armies consist of knights and co still then this is not a big boost probably. I personally like them better as nonbless nation, so that's not a big deal imo. Their real problem still remains lategame. If they got a 100%asn (enables you to get into mr-spells as an alternative to lightning + moonvines) pick on their everywheres instead of an and a3n2 instead of a2n3 on the crones you your god wouldn't have to cover every magic path even those the nation allready has.

Also I don't think making monks cheaper is good. I'd spam them at their vanilla cost. Additional stealth is nice though.

[Meglobob]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Better stealth is also quite possible (though personally I consider that a minor consideration compared to price).

I would prefer better stealth and the price remain the same, the more stealth they have, the more likely I would recuit them.

I think having wardens recruitable everywhere (to guard the mothers) is perfectly thematic.

[Mojo the Avenger]

What if:
Wardens and Lords unchanged.

Mothers become cap only
Mothers buffed a little to be thuggable, maybe given a 50% chance of astral with slightly increased hit points and price?

Crones changed to be:
N2A1
+1 @ 100% in nature or air
+2 @ 100% in their current paths
+1 @ 25% in their current paths

Daughters changed to recruit anywhere, given +2 instead of 1n +1 in their current paths

Cheaper knights

These changes would give man strategic flexibility, a sprinkling of water and earth, and make them a true power in air and nature, but the powerhouse mages would be old and not particularly thuggable because of their age and hp

Further, this means wardens, knights and lords are all likely to be used.