Counter-Battery Process?

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

It was only a matter of time for a topic so near and dear to my heart (OK, other ones are too.) to be out there and not deserve my one cent (Tough times you know.). Never said I was a tech on the internal software settings of how the game works but from my layman's position and game play against the AI it seems to me that the whole discussion on CB ranges is irrelevant for off map artillery except where it might apply to on map targets or targeting which are different concepts in general.
1. The assumption is made that off map arty then is placed at the extreme edge of it's range therefore it cannot be counter battery fired on by tubes of a lesser range from your opponent, AI or you firing at them because x-arty has a better range then y-arty. Well I guess my 155mm current Thai units must be hitting someone else's 122mm and larger caliber tubes then the AI Chinese opponents they thought they where conducting CB fire missions on. By the same token in the past I've had to make up my losses in my arty units to the same issue of losing them to CB fire to include on one rare occasion from a 105mm Battery, now that's embarrassing because 98% of the time all I use is 155mm or close equivalent depending on the country I'm playing. So if range mattered how can this happen, unless I'm playing a Secret Squirrel version of the game such as TSO 5.5 Rev. A-CB?

2. Arty is generally based on Intelligence, Mission, Support, Target, Targeting, CB and Area Denial (To include AA assets etc.) and or Protection.

3. CB has been around for a couple of hundred years now but saw it's more modern foundation laid in the Civil War with the introduction of the rifled cannon, and has grown only more effective as we "progressed" through WWI and WWII. It pains me to say this but many of the modern tactics used today came from the tactics used by the USMC in the Korean War especially in the defense of the Pusan Perimeter where the targeting grid system was developed, more effective tactics in the use of overlapping fires, CB and the more proficient use of offensive tactical and strategic fire movement techniques.

4. This was discussed in great detail a couple of year ago and provides many official references on the topic that might well be worth a look especially for the newer folks looking in here, I had so much fun with that one.

5. I guess I'll never play anyone in a PBEM game I suppose, the reality is if your playing to keep things at a realistic level all elements of the game should be allowed. I guess you could limit things by points, but I still like that "Oh crap where did that come from..." factor the AI still gives at times! And as I've said, though I spend a lot of my time dealing with them but, this is more then a tank game to me, there's enough of them already on the net this certainly doesn't fit that category or else I suspect many like myself wouldn't spend all the time we do with the game other then not playing it as much as we might like to.

6. The above of course was just my opion and like an ... everyone has one. I'll leave you with some food for thought from the USA below and a gift for the CORPS. I need some sleep it's been a tough week.

7. Get past the ref. and read from the source document I think the man is qualified on the topic as taught at Ft. Sill which by way of reminder is the home of "The King of the Battlefield" for the USA and good read on doctrine. The next again is for the CORPS (And everyone else to!) out there with a little CCR to make things right with the world.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Target...e.-a0213232140
http://www.12thmarineartilleryregime...Battery-A.html

See Thread CM arty modeling by IMP, thread page #5 top currently it again is worth while as the refs cover this and other arty issues as well. Also another thread was actually posted a couple of years before this one under a slightly different name.

Regards,
Pat

P.S.
What does the fact that one of these is displayed proudly on my desk and not a sub, John Denvers dad is at the very start and Jimmy Stewart at the end, nothing we or the "enemy" had could catch or shoot at it in it's beginning have to do with this? Nothing I just find it cool and rerelaxing after all it's now "Just another day"-enjoy! And we all just need to BREATHE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx-uZZVc0dE
HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND!!

[gila]

This could all be explained and rationalized easliy,on the size map being used.

Bigger maps need the longer range O/M arty, smaller maps less so perhaps?

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Wdll

Perhaps you didn't get what I was saying. It's not how much you buy, it's that if the other side has artillery with greater range (opponent has range 217 you have 207) you are screwed. He/she can use the artillery without fear for the duration of the battle/campaign.

Good point.

[gila]

There's when a little pregame investigating of your opponent's forces come's in very handy

If your outranged better to chose another force maybe?

[rfisher]

If his CB out-ranges you, it is probably also more expensive. Therefore, not firing yours wastes more of his points than yours as his batteries lie dormant.

[gila]

Reducing the Atry allowment to no more than 5% of total would be more realistic and make your opponent think twice before buying expensive offmap assets

[scJazz]

Probably not the first to bring this up but... any reason why unused Airstrikes can't act as CB? Kinda fixes that "whole longest range wins" thing doesn't it?

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by scJazz

Probably not the first to bring this up but... any reason why unused Airstrikes can't act as CB? Kinda fixes that "whole longest range wins" thing doesn't it?

Of course it is possible to alter the game code to allow this. But I don't even want to think of the man-hours it would involve. And that's not even trying to take into consideration how the heck would you implement off-map anti-aircraft?

For my part in the mini campaign I've been working on (forever) I simply bought an HIMARS section and re-labeled it "Ctr Btty Air" and set it's reinforcement turn to 50 (the max allowed). For most scenarios that's longer then the turns the scenario lasts, for the others by turn 50 it has fired all it's ammo doing counter-battery before (well, 95% of the time) turn 50 so the player never gets the ability to lay a rocket cluster munition barrage. Works out pretty well if you ask me

[scJazz]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Of course it is possible to alter the game code to allow this. But I don't even want to think of the man-hours it would involve. And that's not even trying to take into consideration how the heck would you implement off-map anti-aircraft?

For my part in the mini campaign I've been working on (forever) I simply bought an HIMARS section and re-labeled it "Ctr Btty Air" and set it's reinforcement turn to 50 (the max allowed). For most scenarios that's longer then the turns the scenario lasts, for the others by turn 50 it has fired all it's ammo doing counter-battery before (well, 95% of the time) turn 50 so the player never gets the ability to lay a rocket cluster munition barrage. Works out pretty well if you ask me

HEHEHEH

I was thinking about the coding required to pull off my idea while walking to the store.

Your plan is definitely best!

My idea would require some stunt like...
1) All Aircraft are assumed range 999 for CB
2) All OM Arty is assumed to have Area SAM for defense
3) Now run SAMs for defense
4) Assuming you aren't dead yet run CB Airstrike
4A) Perhaps some weapons aren't used like HARM or Mavericks

[EOT]

Yes this makes sense to use air strikes to hunt and destroy Arty!.
That is what the Allies(U.S.) did during the Gulf War(1990). Once they had air superiority they went hunting for Iraqi Arty and CB'd with MLRS & Air strikes. The Allies were afraid of the Iraqi arty because they had base bleed ammunition and smooth bore arty with longer range capability. One of the reason's Gerald Bull was assassinated in 1990 for his work on an Iraqi Supergun.

A CB function for air strike formations a player/AI might have in SPMBT would have to occur automatically and would have to pass Air defence interception first. Unless a player/AI had air superiority than they should not be allowed to perform an Air Strike CB mission. To complete a CB mission you would have to intercept all the other sides CAP mission and strategic Air defence.

Maybe their could be 25% dice roll to see if shorter range off-map guns could complete a CB on a longer range guns?

I think Andy & Don would say there are to many what if's and it would not be in the scope/spirit of the original game.