MOD: Pangaea standard theme wth. usable Satyrs

The Daughters are sacred? I'd missed that. They're capitol restricted however, so in practice you won't build enough to really make use of it, especially since you have to forego recruiting the *** kicking Crones.

Oh, I totally agree. But for the early game, it's a little edge that is nice. When you can't afford a Crone every turn but you want to pump research they fit nicely. Also they are good for casting Haruspex.

I was just mentioning it because of the cost/effective researcher, comment. Dryads would be fine at 90 (as they are in CW)

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Zen:

quote:

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I think the Cataphracts fit perfectly, every bit as much as the Hoplites.

Must just be a me thing I prefer to think of Centaurs not in the Shadowbane mentality

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Centaurs are fairly civilized in Greek Mythology, so I don't see any problem. I'm not familiar with Shadowbane.

[Snip stuff about Maeneds]

No really, I've had great Success with Maeneds. In one multiplayer game my Maeneds tired out the slew an Earth 9 Cyclops. High morale, berserk, and low cost aren't to be underestimated, as all units have an equal chance of getting lucky rolls. Just don't let them get shot at!

Maybe the Minotaurs should be taken out of the Base Pangaean theme entirely, regulated to New Era then boosted to fit that themes needs.

I like the Minotaurs, even though they aren't Pangaea's best troop. Not all the units need to be equally balanced in a faction, so long as they have at least some use.

With Strategic move 2 they'd be fine, and I think it fits due to their strength and not particularily heavy equipment. Actually, I'd also reduce the Minotaur Commanders cost to 80, but that's a minor point.

With strategic move 1 I never recruit them.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Jasper:
No really, I've had great Success with Maeneds. In one multiplayer game my Maeneds tired out the slew an Earth 9 Cyclops. High morale, berserk, and low cost aren't to be underestimated, as all units have an equal chance of getting lucky rolls. Just don't let them get shot at!

Pans also have easy access to destruction, which is pretty good for helping your lightly armored troops out, and is on the way to mass protection, which you'll also want.

Yes, yes I know all about Destruction. I was actually the one that suggested it to Jasper way back before the patch when we were testing the use of Turmoil Pan. I still don't feel it's viable, but the Maeneds can and will overpower single targets and fatigue even the most annoying of SC's (though a Charcoal Shield takes care of them fairly well).

I like the Minotaurs, even though they aren't Pangaea's best troop. Not all the units need to be equally balanced in a faction, so long as they have at least some use.

With Strategic move 2 they'd be fine, and I think it fits due to their strength and not particularily heavy equipment. Actually, I'd also reduce the Minotaur Commanders cost to 80, but that's a minor point.

I don't think I'd use them even if they were 2 movement (though that would make it much more worthwhile). They only have 25 HP, take damage very quickly. Even using them against Cavalry (so they actually attack, instead of trample) I haven't had much luck. Lances tear them apart and their Axe doesn't repel much in the way of spears (which is a common horseman equipment).

Maybe I just want the best of both worlds. At the very least *some* Pangaean theme has to make them as fearsome as we all grew up reading

[Saber Cherry]

Minotaurs are really not scary... in the default game they have low HP (compared to what I'd expect from Greek mythology), super-low attack and defense, and only a battleaxe that never hits.

They probably - OK, certainly - would be scary if they got "Fear"=) Even a lesser fear, like fear -2, might be nice if it hit everyone they trampled.

But conceptually, I dislike giving minotaurs fear. Instead... giving them "gore" and additional attack and defense might be useful... I don't see any reason why they should fight below the level of militia.

Then there's the fact that they cost more than Jotuns, but are smaller and weaker. They should either cost less than Jotuns or go to size 4, which would make trample effective.

The data:

C:\Projects\Java\Dominions>java Unit pan.war.minotaur jo.axeman

Pan War Minotaur (Base creature: Pan War Minotaur)
Official Name: War Minotaur
Nation: Pan

HP: 25 Str: 16
Prot: 13 Att: 8
Mrl: 13 Def: 7
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 13

Trample, Berserker 4

Weapons: Battleaxe
Items: Bronze Cuirass, Helmet

Gold: 40 Res: 46

*********************************

JO Axeman (Base creature: JO Soldier)
Official Name: Jotun Axeman
Nation: JO

HP: 30 Str: 20
Prot: 18 Att: 10
Mrl: 12 Def: 9
Mrst: 12 Prec: 10
Enc: 6 AP: 12

Resistances:

Fire: 0 Cold: 100
Shock: 0 Poison: 0

Weapons: Jotun Axe
Items: Chain Mail Hauberk, Helmet, Round Shield

Gold: 30 Res: 32

*********************************

(output changed to reflect reality).

As you can see, the war minotaur is WAY more costly and WAY worse. Moving the minotaurs up to size 4, 32 HP, 11 attack and 9 defense, 19 strength... and maybe 45-50 gold... would make them worth building. Possibly. If they're still bad, increasing natural protection to 6 or giving a gore or hoof attack would resolve it.

-Cherry

[ February 11, 2004, 06:50: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Minotaurs are really not scary... in the default game they have low HP (compared to what I'd expect from Greek mythology), super-low attack and defense, and only a battleaxe that never hits.

They're probably intended to be used mainly as tramplers, with the battleaxe as a fallback in case they have to face cavalry.

They probably - OK, certainly - would be scary if they got "Fear"=) Even a lesser fear, like fear -2, might be nice if it hit everyone they trampled.

Trample does enough morale damage with all the people it wounds...

But conceptually, I dislike giving minotaurs fear. Instead... giving them "gore" and additional attack and defense might be useful... I don't see any reason why they should fight below the level of militia.

I have never understood why their skills are THAT low either. Berserk will trash their DEF even if it was good to start with, so the only point of low skills is to make them unable to hit the broad side of a barn if they aren't berserk yet. I think it's excessive.

(snip detailed stat comparison)

As you can see, the war minotaur is WAY more costly and WAY worse. Moving the minotaurs up to size 4, 32 HP, 11 attack and 9 defense, 19 strength... and maybe 45-50 gold... would make them worth building. Possibly. If they're still bad, increasing natural protection to 6 or giving a gore or hoof attack would resolve it.

-Cherry

11 attack and 19 strength? On a Berserk 4? That makes them 15 attack, 23 strength - with battleaxes! - once they take a point of damage (assuming of course that they survive it, which is why I like the natural protection idea). I think that's just a bit excessive for a 40 gold unit.

Defense wouldn't help them much - if they have to fight instead of trample, they will probably shortly be berserk (which, incidentally, already makes up for most of the attack and strength difference from a Jotun and makes them unroutable - but WM are still far more fragile for a higher cost.) Protection is almost always better than defense, but doubly so for a berserker who gets extra protection and reduced defense *and* needs to get hit and survive to go berserk in the first place.

I like the idea of giving them more natural protection - it would help both the normal and the war minotaur. More HP would help them survive long enough to go berserk, too.

A gore attack seems appropriate, but probably wouldn't do much for them - they already have good offense if they're berserk and can't hit worth a damn if they're not.

Do they have recuperation? Any unit that needs to get wounded to fight effectively isn't going to do well in the long term if it can't recuperate.

They ought to be viable without Mass Protection, and very dangerous with it. Currently - they're not as much of a risk to the rest of your army as chariots or elephants because they have good morale and berserk, but instead you risk losing a lot of expensive minotaurs every time they take the field.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
I have never understood why their skills are THAT low either. Berserk will trash their DEF even if it was good to start with, so the only point of low skills is to make them unable to hit the broad side of a barn if they aren't berserk yet. I think it's excessive.

Good point. Their clumsiness is a serious detriment, as if you use any significant amount of Minotaurs you can expect to face Cavalry -- which just destroy Minotaurs.

Considering their very high cost, and especially compared to Jotuns, I'd say they should probably have 10 attack/defense. I'm guessing most of their cost comes from Trample 3, which IMHO is overvalued.

I say nay to Size 4. Otherwise they will try to trample Cavalry, which will cause their fatigue to skyrocket since they are so large.

More HP, base protection and more Berserk would work just fine.

Their Def is already so low when berserking, even militia line up to see if they can pin the tail on the Mino. So if you adjust it, it has to be significant to have any real impact so there is no real point to it. You could just start them with "Gone Berserk" so they don't have to be hit in order to have their benefit, though this could be dangerous.

Another attack in a Gore or a Hoof would allow them some chance against Cav (though they would still get eaten by Lances, which is fine, Cav already have enough going against them).

[st.patrik]

I just want to throw in here that the New Era's Grove Guards actually work pretty well - I think mainly because they have a higher PROT rating (19). They stand up pretty well to cavalry and are essential because almost everyone else in Pangaea uses a spear, which at dam 3 just isn't enough to pierce thick armour (i.e. knights).

I'd love to see some attack and/or HP boost though

[Arralen]

Version 0.4

The Last Version for domVersion2.06. Next will be 2.10 or so ... .

README.TXT
#################################################
Version info

0.4 - Last mod for DOMVersion 2.06
Maenads - have "Claws" instead of "Claw" => 2attacks without the
need for ambidexterity (I hope) which cannot be modded in DOM2.06

Centaurs - can only go berserk-1 instead of -3 now. They are
medium-protection, high-defense troops with 3-turn standoff-
weapons (Javelins). Loosing 3 defence simply makes shure that
every centaur hit will die too. Charging the enemy all alone while
the other are still firing from behind isn't a good idea, being
unable to defend yourself at the same time begs for desaster.
+1 ATT to compensate.

Dryads made more expensive ...
they shouldn't be en par with Sages etc.

Light Minotaurs -5 gp, +1 berserk, -1 enc
Heavy Minotaurs +2 STR, +3 hitpts, +1 ATT/DEF, +1 berserk, -1 enc,
+5 gp, strategic move 2.

0.3
Improved non-berserked Maenads a bit. But they
still go dead instead of berserk most times, and
I don't really have any idea what to do against that.

Put furs on all satyrs except the hoplite of course.
I'm not shure about the reveler, though. It's only
chance of survival is high defense, and furs are at -1.
With quarter- or snake staff it's down to 16(15),
which isn't sufficient at all.

thanks to Zen and Jasper for their suggestions

0.2
nothing to brag about

0.1
...

#################################################

.. will do some testing, than release the mod to the illwinter page. Anyone interested in testing email me.

See you with DOM2.10

[ February 22, 2004, 17:02: Message edited by: Arralen ]