Carry Capacity for Jeep, Kuebelwagen, etc.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Originally Posted by Imp

A further note on carry capacities. Desperate times means desperate measures the vehicle might only carry 2 but if it saves your life you are going to risk falling off.
If the game code allowed people should be able to ride on the outside of APCs, or even cleverer if go over rough terrain riders might take casulties depending on speed.

When I was young (&stupid?) in Thailand we hitched a lift on a lite van, 4 of us standing on the bumper hanging onto the drainage channels & ariel of all things.
I am still alive & it beat walking 3 miles
People hanging off vehicles was common out there.
Buses if full you ride the roof rack or bumper, has handles & they only slow down to let you off as on a timetable & get docked pay if late.
With practice you can jump from a vehicle doing 15-20mph & stay on your feet, the trick is to start running before you hit the ground & lean into it.

rofl, are you serious?

[Imp]

rofl, are you serious? Thats an affirmative

Chucking political correctness aside for a minute this carry capacity thing shows diffrent peoples perspective.

Carry capacity of a 4 seat vehicle.

USA > 4 we want to live & here comes the law suite
Brits etc > Generaly 4 but a bit unstable 6 or 7 for the reckless
India etc > 7s normal isnt it?
China 3rd world > If it still moves thats how many it can carry.
Health & safety whats that. We are of small stature & can get many people on this.

To a 1960s Chinese soldier getting a ride would probably be a novelty. If he worked on a farm he might have seen the truck that picked up the produce & possibly a tractor period.

This diffrence of opinion applies throughout tthe whole game & the mechanics prevent certain things that would be nice.

People should think through before post things
1) Firstly game mechanics read the manuel then ask ( I have been quilty once)
2) Read the posts about error reporting procedure etc.
3) Make suggestions but be aware thats what they are due to diffrent perspectives or game mechanics.
4) There is only so much time in the day big issues need to be resolved first. I can't wait to see arty mod coming up. Hopefully wont be shifting all over the place but whatever its likely to be a big change.
5) OOB changes fine if backed up with hard facts or think its an error.
But otherwise if you want them you have the facility to mod them yourself.
If Changed carry capacity of all vehicles in all nations to your view could then post it as an alternative. How much time have you got spare?

You did not know arty mod in the wings probably suffer from 1+2
Sorry degenerated into a bit of a rant but I have a lot of respect for Andy & Don who are far more patient than me. They answer a lot of trivial stuff & it must get wearing because I read stuff & think grief.
I owe these guys big time for wasting my life with this game & appologise for wasting theirs at times but I want them to keep moving it forward & not eventually say enough because of our ramblings.
Buy the bloody CD so they at least get 50 cents for your ramblings. If the game intrests you enough to be on this site then you should at least have the courtesy to buy it.
In fact do your eyes a favour $30 now to save yourself specs later somebody post screen shots same map zoomed out CD & free.

Hmm posting anyway.

[Marek_Tucan]

Well, there is that rumor about how few German saboteurs from Skorzeny's action were found during the Battle of the Bulge... There were four of them in one jeep
Anyway, capacity of any vehicle is always "one man more" regardless on how many are already on board

[chuckfourth]

Hi Imp
To me the question isnt how many men can you fit on a vehicle its about how do the carry capacities affect game play.
The British in (early) North Africa had no APCs there infantry travelled in trucks. However because you can load a 13 man squad onto any of the Crusader tanks the lack of APCs isnt a problem because you just load you infantry onto the tanks. Which the British didnt do.
Giving tanks a carry capacity big enough to carry the standard infantry squad (13 or so) is coding for the exception not the general rule which is why I dont like it.

There are two ways to code the general rule, either make tank carrying capacities less that a full infantry squad say 8 or so. Or make it expensive in terms of casualties if the tank is hit. There is after all no better target than tank riders, An infantry squad is spread out over 50 sq. metres, a gun crew is at least on the the ground and hopefully has cover near by. Tank riders are over a metre in the air in a tight little ball, and not seeing much at 50 mph. They have some cover from the turret but this is only to the front, from the side rear and above they remain the ideal target. I think that the casualty rate for tank riders should be the highest in the game which it currently isnt.
So giving tanks high carying capacities and not penalising the riders much if they are hit means that every nation uses them, Id like to see them restricted to Russia who really did use them.
ALso dont forget when you hit the ground running, you've got 20 kilos of pack a rifle in yours arms and maybe a tripod or something just as clunky and heavy.
And
Unlike infantry tank riders are a actually a better target when stationary.
Best Regards Chuck.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

And they should get more supression, once they see an mg firing at them thell probably jump off the tank and start running for cover

[DRG]

The issue with jeeps and utility vehicles in general is it's something you can put your HQ in . OK.... it may be "gamey" to some to allow that but I can live with it and so can 99% of the people who play but there will always be the rare few that get bent out of shape if a unit has two seats and we give it a capacity of 4.


Don

[DRG]

Chuck, it wasn't just the Russians that did this and you know it or should so no........ we are not going to restrict tank riding to one nation. I think you make these suggestions because you really do no think through what's actually involved and what impact it would make on the game and who else might not like your bright ideas.

FYI looking into tank rider casualties was put on the " to investigate" list some time ago. When the next update is released you can decide whether this lives up to your "standards" or not but generally, if you haven't clued in by now, most of what you complain about and most of what you think we should do to change the game to suit you isn't at the top of our priorities.

Don

[Imp]

Hi Chuck I see your point about riders but would say this.
Russia used tank riders virtually through out the war firstly to run away even on little tankettes (some of which probably do have to high but its a generic figure & you do the research) From late 42 seem to use a lot. Allies Brits etc did not use as much & not really till late 43 from what I can see. Guess news traveled slower then so took a while before someone heard about Crazy Ivan. Do not ask me about minor powers not wasting more time.

Utility vehicles yes with a carry capacity of 6 affects game play could fit 2 ATGM teams in. Not really worried thats a big loss if I lose it & if they really wanted them there a man or ammo would be left behind. You cant split teams so if had several vehicles & wanted to send ATGMs & scouts you would end up needing more vehicles than you would need in a pinch.
Come to that ATGM teams as do a lot of units have generic ammo 4 units so thats wrong.

Given the scale of the game the amount of research required to get every unit for every timeframe right is enormous so I can live with it. Basicaly I would not do it so dont expect game guys to. I do think a few issues with modern APCs, some cannons seem to have very low ammo counts so I tend to stick with MG variety in that case. It does not bother me enough to get off my arse & check it out.

I have modded mobile AT guns as do not like the way its set up. AT guns with an engine are modeled as vehicles so cant be towed but are very slow like speed 5. By changing to foot as move is so small they have the same movement capability. I have sacrificed the ability for them to bog so that they can be towed as to me this is more important.

The whole point is in the grand scheme of things its not important its a game always will be but it does a better job of replicating battle than any other despite covering such a vast timeframe & nations. Can you imagine the amount of research time that has gone into getting this to where it is today then tinkering with code blah blah

Tailor it using house rules & if need be OOB editor to suite your view of what is correct

If you wanted to you could mod all British tanks prior to 43 to have no carry capacity but to have after. A much easier way of course is house rules to cover these little problems that way the tank crew could still hitch a ride to safety if only a tank is near.
Ban the use of riders except to extract its that simple.

I regulary use house rules to add flavour or get round game restrictions such as
All arty in same troop must be within contact distance (2 hexes) not spread out.
Should probably be closer.
Rename ammo trucks if allow as generic to type like arty tank helo, Only correct unit type can reload at. Still not right but better.
First turn or 2 only scouts & their transports can move arty suitably delayed changes flavour of a game & lets them do the job.
Loads more all for variety.
Simple things like saying lets have a high tech clash all infantry mech & dont buy the cheap ones. Gives you a diffrent game as people tend to buy 2 cheap instead of 1 expensive. Just because you have Tigers dont buy them every time you play Germans how boring is that.
Oh thats another house rule you have cause Tigers were not used in N Africa till later

As I said originaly everything is relative to me this is a minor issue I can work around if it bothered me.

Now if we could sort guns so have 3 or 4 classes of limbering from quick to slow to stop things like 88s moving that would be a welcome change but sadly this is an old beast & if it could be done I think they would have so I have not suggested it.
OK should not have made that coffee DRG has beat me at the typing stakes

[DRG]

Chuck has been told many times that MOBHack is provided so people can tweak things the way they prefer them to be .

Don

[chuckfourth]

Originally Posted by DRG

Chuck, it wasn't just the Russians that did this and you know it or should so no........ we are not going to restrict tank riding to one nation. I think you make these suggestions because you really do no think through what's actually involved and what impact it would make on the game and who else might not like your bright ideas.
Don

Hi DRG
As you dont like me to write long posts Im trying to keep them short. So to qualify my previous statement about tank riders what I mean is that only the Russians had a tank desant -formation-, what im calling 'tank riders' (Of course there is an exception, apparently the Germans had desant troops on stugs late in the war). Other armies had 'infantry riding on tanks' not 'tank riders'. The distinction is important because of the other two major combatants UK and USA 'infantry riding on tanks' is in reality extremely rare. This is because both these armies are fully motorised. Why ride a tank when there is a truck available. Any desant activities must then be on a very ad-hoc basis.
I have thought it out, Ive never used them in over one hundred PBEM and have had no problems, and its no problem to implemet as its a simple OOB change, just make Carrying capacities for tanks one less than the size of that countries infantry squad, and as always happy to do the work for you.
Judging by the tone of you and Andies replies to my posts Im pretty sure you guys dont like any of my bright ideas, unluckily for you this doesnt stop me enjoying your game. As for the playing population clearly gamey players despise me and realism nuts appreciate my input.
Thanks for looking into the casualty aspect of this.
Best Regards Chuck