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  #1  
Old December 13th, 2017, 11:30 PM

jivemi jivemi is offline
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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

Speaking of the 122mm battery, is the range given (210 hexes) correct? The 203mm battery has a given range of 208, while the 152mm's are even less. Rather unusual, no?
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Old December 14th, 2017, 12:17 AM
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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

It is not the least bit unusual that a smaller shell has a greater range and besides the resident "error ferret" already blessed the range of that gun back in 2013

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=49723

64 122mm obr 31/37 - 210, real 19.7 km = OK
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Old December 14th, 2017, 07:08 PM

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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

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Originally Posted by DRG View Post
It is not the least bit unusual that a smaller shell has a greater range and besides the resident "error ferret" already blessed the range of that gun back in 2013
Oh, that's so nice
I forgot I did such list (and you had a patience )

As for range of artillery pieces, it's mostly a matter of barrel length.

Anyway, to finish with a partial oob review:

39 GAZ-AAMG - if Maxim quad was adopted in 1931, then most probably such trucks were available earlier, than 6/37 (there isn't any info) - maybe some 1934-35, when GAZ AA (truck's designation) became more numerous.

(BTW: to be precise, GAZ-AA was produced since 1932, but I don't suggest to change availability of #44 GAZ truck - earlier there was Soviet AMO-F-15 in this class, and a handful of foreign trucks)

590 Gaz DShK AAMG - the same: there was not a reason, why the Soviets wouldn't just put DShK AAMG on trucks earlier. I believe they were available in 1941 (now 8/42).
I think, that the name should be unified with #133 GAZ-DShK AAMG-3 - best would be "GAZ DShK AAMG".

59, 191, 440, 444, 613 DShK - despite it was accepted in 1939, as "obr. 1938", but according to Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 6/2004, deliveries to the army started in 1940.

100 ZSU-37-1 - designation was just ZSU-37 according to books.
(BTW: it carried 320 rounds of ammo - now it has 35+5. I see, that other 37-40mm SP flaks have similar ammo, but isn't it too little?..)

108 Komsomolets (APC) - they weren't used as personnel carriers in scout units at all - besides, apart from an armoured cab, the soldiers carried on external benches were totally exposed (and the only thing they could do under fire was jump off and take cover, if they managed). It should be removed IMO, and formations should be corrected.

On the other hand, in the first stage of war they were sometimes used as tankettes, supporting troops with MG fire, reportedly also used by partisans. Maybe it should be changed to #121 tankette class, with a formation of eg. two vehicles, available in 6/41- around end of 1943?

On the other hand, T-27 tankettes (#302) were still used during the Winter War, and some even were used in combat after German attack, until 1942! [a book by A. Chubachin, Military Chronicle]. As prime movers (#339) they were rather extinct after 1942. (A number of T-27 remained in far East until 1945, but I don't think it's worth mentioning).

Komsomolets as a prime mover (#336) was largely extinct by end of 1943 [a book by M. Pavlov, Military Chronicle]. They were light prime movers, used only with 45mm AT guns and 76mm IG, but I'm afraid there's no way to limit their usage? (like other light tractors, like SdKfz 10, Renault UE..)

They were never supposed to be used as dedicated ammo carriers (#333) - their number wasn't even enough for artillery.

36,91 ISU-122, 234,304 ISU-122s - all have too much ammo (should be 30).

35 SU-122 - serial production was from 12/42, and first units were created that month, combat debut was on 2/43 (now 11/42) (it would not need a change in formations, for there is #288 SU-26 until 12/42). [Military Chronicle on SU-122]

Ammo initially was 36 rounds, "finally increased to 38-40" (now 40), so maybe this unit should have 36.

199 SU-122 - heat rounds appeared in "summer 43", so maybe this unit should be available from 6/43, and #35 until 5/43. They were used in significant numbers until early 1944 only (12/46)

655 T-26 Dozer - unfortunately, Russian books on T-26 don't know dozer variant. There is only one photo of T-26 tested with a light snow plough, and some mine ploughs were tested in 1933-34, but not accepted.

However, according to Baryatynski, during the Winter War, in 2-3/40 there were introduced T-26 with disc mine rollers(!), apparently a small number. It could be reclassified, and the same icon would do (with appropriate changes in formations).


It's worth to add Dodge WC (Polish LWP #179) (maybe as utility vehicle?) - they were fairly typical from some 1942/43.

There could be added transport glider KC-20 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolesnikov-Tsibin_KC-20 - the "heaviest" of all Soviet light gliders, carrying 20 troops or 2.2 ton. Pictures: http://www.airwar.ru/enc/glider/kts20.html.
Icon 2854-56 of light A-7 seems good as well.
Along with G-11 (#200) they could even carry light AT guns in parts (45mm piece weighted 560 kg without a limber).

(BTW: G-11 (#200) was able to carry only 11 men, including pilot (as the name indicates), but it is used to carry 12-men squads.)

I hope, that some info helps.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 08:10 AM

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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
100 ZSU-37-1 - designation was just ZSU-37 according to books.
(BTW: it carried 320 rounds of ammo - now it has 35+5. I see, that other 37-40mm SP flaks have similar ammo, but isn't it too little?..)
Keep in mind that the light AA-guns in the game (as well as historically) fired bursts rather than single rounds. This is represented in game with a limited ammo load and high HE kill rating.

For example the 37 mm AA-gun in this example has a HE kill rating of 11 per burst, while a 37 mm gun firing individual rounds would have a HE kill rating of 1. Taking this into account, I think the ammo load in the game sounds quite reasonable.
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Old December 14th, 2017, 01:57 AM

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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

Interesting. One learns something new playing this incredible game or reading the forum(s) all the time. My compliments to the error ferret, Pibwl.

Btw--and sorry if this has been covered before--he says "a practical way of calculating off-map artillery range is 190 + range in km...". Which means that batteries with "real" ranges of several kilometers' difference have actual game range differences of only several hexes. For instance: "70 10cm leFH 30(t) - 206, real 16 km = OK 71 10.5cm leFH 18 - 202, real 10.6 (leFH18) to 12.3 km (leFH18M) = pretty OK"

So how do kilometers become equivalent to hexes after 190? Am I simply dim or missing something (or both)? Thanks.
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Old December 14th, 2017, 06:38 AM

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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

Regarding the ranges of the off-map artillery, it should be described in the Mobhack manual. Essentially, after 200 the range values use the reduced scale. This is probably due to the range being allowed a maximum value of 255.

Keep in mind that the only practical purpose that the range serves for off-map artillery is to determine whether they can fire counter-battery missions against other off-map targets.
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Old December 14th, 2017, 08:52 AM
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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

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Keep in mind that the only practical purpose that the range serves for off-map artillery is to determine whether they can fire counter-battery missions against other off-map targets.
Precisely correct, That is the ONLY reason there are increases beyond 200 to 255 as stated in MOBHack help

Quote:
This range formula is vital to the counter-battery process.
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Old December 14th, 2017, 04:12 PM
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Mobhack Mobhack is offline
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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griefbringer View Post
Regarding the ranges of the off-map artillery, it should be described in the Mobhack manual. Essentially, after 200 the range values use the reduced scale. This is probably due to the range being allowed a maximum value of 255.

Keep in mind that the only practical purpose that the range serves for off-map artillery is to determine whether they can fire counter-battery missions against other off-map targets.
Also - if the battery has 200 range then it can drop fires anywhere on the map.

If however the off-map battery had less than 200 range then range is calculated as if they were at -1,-1 resulting in areas of the map that cannot be reached on the larger maps.

All off-map arty therefore should have a 200+ range - an OOB designer who puts say 120mm mortars into an off-map battery with range of 160 is in error. He should have cloned the on-map weapon and given it a 200+ range for the off-map version. (Or not have made off map mortar batteries in the first place).

Other than that the range is only useful in calculating if C/B fire can be done.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 10:02 AM

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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobhack View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griefbringer View Post
Regarding the ranges of the off-map artillery, it should be described in the Mobhack manual. Essentially, after 200 the range values use the reduced scale. This is probably due to the range being allowed a maximum value of 255.

Keep in mind that the only practical purpose that the range serves for off-map artillery is to determine whether they can fire counter-battery missions against other off-map targets.
Also - if the battery has 200 range then it can drop fires anywhere on the map.

If however the off-map battery had less than 200 range then range is calculated as if they were at -1,-1 resulting in areas of the map that cannot be reached on the larger maps.

All off-map arty therefore should have a 200+ range - an OOB designer who puts say 120mm mortars into an off-map battery with range of 160 is in error. He should have cloned the on-map weapon and given it a 200+ range for the off-map version. (Or not have made off map mortar batteries in the first place).

Other than that the range is only useful in calculating if C/B fire can be done.
OK thanks. So does 200 or more hex range automatically classify artillery as off-map? Reason I ask is 'cuz in a recent Russian long campaign battle the AI opponent put 10.5cm Haubitzen with range of 202 ON the map. Would that make them capable of hitting Russian off-map arty? Thanks.
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Old December 14th, 2017, 08:42 AM
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Default Re: Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

Yes.......open MOBHack help it's all laid out in a chart and has been for years so there is no need for his formula
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