The unbeatable combination is it out there?

[geoschmo]

Gozra, now you are asking a totally different question. If you are asking is there anything your friend can do facing an enemy already with Tailsmans and outproducing him, then the answer may be no. But that doesn't mean it's not a level playing field.

In a single planet start it takes a long time to research the Tailsman. Time that you can be using to research lot's of stuff that is useful to take them out before they can get it. No, you can't wait 100 turns for him to come find you. That's why it's important to scout the galaxy as quickly as possible. Not just to find suitable planets, but also to see who is out there waiting for you.

When you find a religious race, attack them. Get their allies to attack them. Knock them out before they get the tailsman. They will be playing from behind for much of the game. But in the end game they will be tough to beat. The key is to get them before the end game.

Every combination of racial attributes and characteristics has it's advantages and disadvantages at different times in the game. You can't beat all the races all the time, but you can beat any races some time.

EDIT: Or, if you prefer taking your time, building an empire and then having a grand massive war at the end to determine the winner, then I suggest taking the Tailsman yourself.

Geo

[ August 23, 2002, 00:05: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Gozra]

Everything you said was valid. But I am talking about a combination of religious and Hyperproductive. Properly handled I bet this combo can win at a higher percentage of the time that any other combo. Aggree or disaggree?
I will tell you in order to compete in the game I have had to change the race picks I make. And to choos other wise means a bigger chance of ending up second best.

[ August 23, 2002, 01:05: Message edited by: Gozra ]

I'm not sure it's right to characterise the Talisman as an end-game tech. It takes a few research levels to reach, but it's not that expensive, and you can get there relatively quickly if you focus on it. And who says the intermediate levels aren't useful? Shrines are great!

You can for example save a lot of research points by getting DUCs and PDCs and then ignoring all other weapons development. With Talismans, ECM and armour, they're the only weapons you need to make some pretty dangerous ships.

How to counter them?

Long range weapons and max-range tactics, so you are shooting and religion-boy isn't.

Otherwise (as others have already said) maximising your to-hit chances and getting as close as possible, reducing his advantage to a minimum.

The point about play-balance is that he spent 1500 points to get religion. What did you spend yours on? Better Intel ought to let you sabotage his engines or steal his ships. Better production would let you outnumber him. Better research would give you more damaging weapons - he may be hitting more often, but when you hit, it hurts a lot more. Etc.

Mark

[geoschmo]

Well I can't disagree until I can consistantly beat them. Up till now my performance agaisnt religious races isn't much better than .500. And as players get better at the supporting techniques that along with Tailsman make it so devastating, that may go down. But I am convinced that the very fact of the effectivness of the technique will help the use of it to be self limiting. As religious race players get a reputation for being extremely dangerous opponents other players will single them out for early termination, just out of a sense of self-preservation. This shold in turn persuade players to think twice about selecting it as a racial trait.

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

Properly handled I bet this combo can win at a higher percentage of the time that any other combo. Aggree or disaggree?"

Lot of racial points there, especially since the two goals don't overlap. Where are your points going?

Phoenix-D

[Krsqk]

"Well I can't disagree until I can consistantly beat them. Up till now my performance agaisnt religious races isn't much better than .500."

I had a fit in my latest Devnull game against the Toltoyan. They were the Last race in my purge, and I didn't realize they were religious. My Talisman-equipped SDs plowed through their outer systems on Strategic Combat against 10-to-1 odds--until I met their new Talisman-equipped SDs. Not a pleasant surprise. They actually destroyed my Last ship before I decided to quit attacking. I only came back because I had better production. Now I'm building sphereworlds in every system, converting all planets to breathable, and creating new planets out of all asteroids.

[Gozra]

You make My point exactly Krsqk. The Talisman with high production is diffcult to beat. But the Race can be smashed before they get the Talisman. The problem comes in that it takes awhile to spread the knowledge that a dangerous enemy is afoot. And I contend that someone with the Talisman and High production will win better than 50% of the time. With PBW Survivor2 coming up it would be an interesting testing ground.

[ August 23, 2002, 06:27: Message edited by: Gozra ]

[Growltigga]

I was never part of the GUTB experience BUT, I personally find light cruisers and destroyers armed with DUC V's, armour III and PDC IV a tough combination to beat

[Lemmy]

If he has more then 5 weapons per ship, or doesn't use that multi targetting component, just build lots of Escorts, sure, they may be gone with one hit, but his ship won't be able to fire all weapons, thus reducing his effectiveness.
And use the null-space projecter, if you can take out the talisman, he won't be able to hit you as easily.

[Nodachi]

Gorza, you're right it is a tough combo to beat but there are ways.

• Mine everything: force him to put sweepers on his ships. 30kt each means fewer guns.
  
• Seekers: use lots of them and force him to be PDC heavy. 20kt each
  
• Cloaking: use cloaked ships to get behind his lines and hit his planets. When he catches on he'll put sensors on his ships. 40kt

By doing all that you're forcing him to react to you and burn up tonnage on his ships.
Although now that his ships have fewer guns you still have to be able to survive getting close to him so you can hit.

• Emissive and Crystalline: a couple of plates of emissive and tons of crystalline, the crystalline will get hit first but the emissive ability should take effect first (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on this!). His shots just build up your shields.
  
• Emissive and Organic: pretty much the same thing but the organic will Last longer because it has less damage to regenerate.

These are just a few ideas I'm sure there's a million more out there. Part of the beauty of this game is that there is no perfect strategy.