Mod Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6 - Page 30

Squirrelloid · #**291** December 31st, 2009, 02:49 PM

katanas do not require special materials. Its hard and soft steel, which is effected by how much carbon is in the steel, which is purely a result of differences in the processing of iron into steel. So it requires an understanding of metallurgy (its LA, we have that). But all it requires is iron, flux, and heat - nothing rare or unusual.

A katana can be time consuming. But not every single one is a 1000h piece of artwork. You simply couldn't produce them in militarily useful quantities at that rate. I realize we're romanticizing Japan, but most katanas are going to have to be made cheaply enough to make something approaching mass production feasible.

A no-dashi is just a 'big katana', however, which is why i think the katana costs too many resources.

Ashigaru at their current price are rather unusual to buy because they cost almost as much gold as a samurai. That's kind of ridiculous. So the price is definitely too high relative to Jomon's other options - 1.5 ashigaru or 1 aki-oni is a no-brainer choice most of the time. And Jomon's other options are the only thing that matters. Who cares what Mictlan pays? I refer you to Black Templars, who are vastly overpriced for what they do. Cost of units is a within-nation balance thing, and only the whole has to balance against another nation.

(Further, the 9 resource cost is the limiting factor in production, slashing the gold cost mostly reduces the upkeep - which is completely justified because historically the only 'pay' they would have gotten was food. I'd propose a 1 gold cost, but that probably is a little crazy).

Trumanator · #**292** December 31st, 2009, 04:04 PM

The 9 hp thing isn't so much a balance thing as just a dumb "feature". That gives samurai less HPs than indy militia, which is just stupid.

rdonj · #**293** December 31st, 2009, 07:52 PM

Yes they do :P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamahagane

I could maybe see 6 gp ashigaru, but much lower just won't happen. And yeah, resources will always be the limiting factor with jomon's high resource to gold ratio units, but 4gp militia just doesn't exist.

Squirrelloid · #**294** December 31st, 2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdonj

Yes they do :P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamahagane

I could maybe see 6 gp ashigaru, but much lower just won't happen. And yeah, resources will always be the limiting factor with jomon's high resource to gold ratio units, but 4gp militia just doesn't exist.

That it doesn't currently exist is no reason for it not to exist.

On Tamahagane: yes, the japanese had to get their steel from iron sands because that was how it was readily available. So they developed a special process for extracting it. It sounds similar in complexity to many pre-15th century steel-making processes, and thus not overly 'special'. The only reason its hard to get today is because modern steel-making techniques are more efficient and guarantee a more uniform quality, so the demand for steel made the old-fashion way is mostly for sword-making enthusiasts - its continuing use is an anachronism.

Only "damascus steel" might qualify as a special material, and even then i'm dubious.

kianduatha · #**295** December 31st, 2009, 09:11 PM

Now, I don't know whether I quite agree with the necessity of a low-resource expansion recruit, but its implementation would work out just about perfectly. Just give them a Gladiator-esque Ronin unit. Since Jomon was never gold-limited anyways, it would give them a kickstart for early expansion. It'd also help a bunch vs. rushes.

rdonj · #**296** December 31st, 2009, 09:14 PM

I went and looked at a few other methods of steelmaking on wikipedia, and Tamahagane has the dubious honor of being by far the least efficient steel to make, both in terms of labor required and materials required per ton. Excessively complex? Maybe not. But I think resources is basically a measure of labor and materials required.

That it doesn't currently exist is an argument QM will use to not make it exist

Squirrelloid · #**297** December 31st, 2009, 09:23 PM

How many ashigaru do you think Jomon should be able to maintain relative to 'samurai' (by which i mean aka-oni, since that's the functionally useful one). I'd say at least 10:1, which is a hard point to reach when the aka-oni costs <20 gold.

rdonj · #**298** December 31st, 2009, 10:01 PM

If we're going purely on theme, sure, that would make sense. But then no nation really works that way, and it would significantly alter the way the game works if they did. You could maybe make it work, but I imagine it would be difficult.

kianduatha · #**299** January 1st, 2010, 05:30 AM

I do think that with the recent changes to underwater accessibility in CBM 1.6, a revisitation of the kappa summon is in order. At this point it's easier to(if you want to rush the water) prophetise your assassin and turn 5 forge an amulet of breathing(which you actually have the native gem capabilities for and is Const-0!), then have him assassinate through a few water provinces. Or just go to Const-2, make a Manual of Water Breathing and send some Go-Hatamoto to pillage the water(they are great at it, by the way). Total investment: 5 gems.

In comparison Summon Kappa is a rotten deal. Frankly, with the mage turns required to get a usable number of kappas, you could have researched up to Const-2 and gotten underwater troops that don't melt when they meet Triton Troopers. I'd rather just have 3 or 4 or 5 normal kappas per summon.

Illuminated One · #**300** January 1st, 2010, 04:04 PM

Instead of linked randoms why not make the master shugenya for example 2e1n + 100%fawen and somewhat more expensive. Or even make that a copy, so the player can choose if he wants to recruit the new or the old one(s) (i.e. you could theoretically have 5 versions, giving the player the decision over his magic).
This could produce quite powerful combinations reliably while you still need to balance them against the cheaper s2 + 200%fawen mages.