The Vine Ogre

[FrankTrollman]

If your enemy has giant groups of vine ogres, he probably also has a good sized group of Ivy Kings/Treelords, and your problem are likely a lot more significant than just a bunch of vine ogres.

I don't see how that follows at all. 200 Vine Ogres is just 10 Crones with hats working for 10 turns. Or 10 Daughters with Hats and Sticks for 10 turns. Or some combination thereof, subject to the relative availability of gems and money.

In any case, 200 VOs is a reality by turn 20, while a good sized group of Ivy Kings probably is not.

-Frank

[Arralen]

Your math is faulty.

Or you meant "200 VO per 10 turns", what might be true after turn 20.

[BigDaddy]

He's right, If you use all your gems to make ivy crown's, and find enough gems to make the balance of 10/rnd up you could have 200 VO's by rnd 20. I've never horded VO's in the early game, I try to get more impact by using them in mid to late game in huge groups created by 10 Ivy Kings (Like 40/rnd), and using the king's for local defense when necessary.

[sushiboat]

I don't see how that follows at all. 200 Vine Ogres is just 10 Crones with hats working for 10 turns. Or 10 Daughters with Hats and Sticks for 10 turns. Or some combination thereof, subject to the relative availability of gems and money.

In any case, 200 VOs is a reality by turn 20, while a good sized group of Ivy Kings probably is not.

Air Queens and Ice Devils are also in play (or soon to be) by turn 20.

200 Vine Ogres are nothing to sneeze at. However, this hypothetical player is paying, in addition to 150 gems (for VOs plus crowns), a huge opportunity cost of 100 mage turns (10 mages X 10 turns). Think of how much research, forging, site searching, other summoning, combat support, etc. could be done with 100 mage turns. Even the 150 gems are a steep price to pay at that point in the game. It means this player won't be able to afford to cast more than a few other ritual spells.

Vine Ogres are nature's equivalent of undead. Most kinds of undead don't eat, don't rout, and don't require upkeep. Undead have fewer hit points and are vulnerable to priest gangs, but on the other hand, they won't feed a life drain attack. Also, you pay a fixed price for an unholy priest (e.g., 28 gems for a Mound Fiend) and then get a steady stream of undead for no additional gems. You can argue that the good undead spells are at a higher level, but then again, 100 mage turns means several hundred research points.

[Boron]

tinkthank said:
4. That a VO is inferior in every way to, say, a devil, or a FoD, etc. is making a point in my book: Devil Factories are no-brainers.
Maybe it is just a silly idea to want to balance any one unit out without changing the entire game. So... I'll retract the idea for now ... but would like to keep it in mind for future patches or dom3.

To setup Devil Factories takes quite some time . You might be rushed to death meanwhile already by Pangenea or Vanheim .

And with blood there are so many other choices like IDs and ADs so a devil is not a no-brainer .
And vs. a Wrathful Squad devils suck bigtime also .

The only thing in Dominions where i would maybe use the word no-brainer is maybe Caelum . They are unfair , good troops and the best earlygame - midgame mages .

Really quickly caelum researches quickness + lightning bolt . That's already 2 dead troops per caelum mage per battleturn for most nations . Shortly after they can either rush to AQs or Alteration 6 for false horror spamming + ultraunfair raiding .

So caelum is my no-brainer number 1 .

[ioticus]

I think the problem with Vine Ogres is they're too easy to mass produce. An Ivy King can produce 4 (!) of them a turn for the cost of only 1 N. And Ivy Kings are cheap at 20 N each.

[Graeme Dice]

FrankTrollman said:
As is, people are summoning armies of like 200+ Vine Ogres and sitting around on them waiting for wars to break out.

200 vine ogres will be easily defeated by bane lords that are properly equipped. This will also be a fraction of the cost, both in gems and mage time.

[Graeme Dice]

FrankTrollman said:
I don't see how that follows at all. 200 Vine Ogres is just 10 Crones with hats working for 10 turns.

That's a huge number of both gems and mage time, for very little actual benefit. That's a total cost of 50 gems for the hats, 2300 gold for the crones, 767 gold in upkeep, and 100 nature gems for the spells.

In any case, 200 VOs is a reality by turn 20, while a good sized group of Ivy Kings probably is not.

Do you seriously have 150 nature gems to throw away that early in the game?

[BigDaddy]

Graeme Dice said:

Do you seriously have 150 nature gems to throw away that early in the game?

You mean with out getting any Ivy Kings .

I think you could increase the Ivy King price to 30 nature gems, and decrease their summoning bonus to +2 and they would STILL be a good cast. Anyone disagree?

[Graeme Dice]

BigDaddy said:You mean with out getting any Ivy Kings .

Ivy Kings aren't exactly early game.

I think you could increase the Ivy King price to 30 nature gems, and decrease their summoning bonus to +2 and they would STILL be a good cast. Anyone disagree?

I do. To get any benefit out of an ivy king opposed to a vine crown on two mages, you'll have to have the ivy king cast for 15 turns.