Guide MA Oceania - OMG, I think I've done it - Page 4

chrispedersen · #1 February 19th, 2009, 09:56 PM

Baalz, I think you missed part of my statement:

thats 10% dead, +20% feeblemind with +3 luck. Don't get me wrong .. I *love* transform - but with a couple of CBM Blood wizard exceptions, I don't generally find it mp competitive.

chrispedersen · #2 February 19th, 2009, 10:04 PM

So here's my prospective build for MA-Oceania:

Pretender: F4W4E4A4D4N4, Dom 4
Scales O3 D3 C3

First turn: Prophetize a siren. You could wait for for a bishop
in order have a H4 site searcher - but I find the utility of the siren much higher. Flying move 3. You are going to find a lot of kelp fortresses - the prophetized siren gives you quick options to lab/temple them.

Plus, the sirens can help you quickly find land sacred sites. The first couple of turns Research with your pretender. You don't want to fail a conquest and end up with your pretender twiddling.

With this build, I'd start on Construction immediately, to get the pearl factory going.

Baalz · #3 February 19th, 2009, 10:04 PM

I don't think you appreciate the implications of what I said Chris. If the failure rate is 3 times what I outlined then it take 3 times that amount to "pay for itself". I don't know what the failure rate is (I don't think luck scales affect it), but something that pays for itself in 2-5 turns is a pretty good investment. Assuming your numbers are accurate, if you plan on eventually recovering most of those feebleminded guys with fairy queens then the transformation is paying for itself in under two turns even if you don't think the new mages are any better at all. Even if you never recover a single feebleminded guy it's still massively worthwhile to start investing in this early on.

chrispedersen · #4 February 19th, 2009, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalz

I don't think you appreciate the implications of what I said Chris. If the failure rate is 3 times what I outlined then it take 3 times that amount to "pay for itself". I don't know what the failure rate is (I don't think luck scales affect it), but something that pays for itself in 2-5 turns is a pretty good investment. Assuming your numbers are accurate, if you plan on eventually recovering most of those feebleminded guys with fairy queens then the transformation is paying for itself in under two turns even if you don't think the new mages are any better at all. Even if you never recover a single feebleminded guy it's still massively worthwhile to start investing in this early on.

Well, without a word from the sponsors we'll never know - but lets put it this way - I've noticed it enough that if I am going to transform - I always take +3. Not only to prevent death - but to get cool forms. Like Chimeras.

It isn't a question of how quickly it pays for itself, only Baalz. It also has to be better than all other opportunities. Is it better than simply summoning another Faerie queen, or another lamia? Or invading Russia.

vfb · #5 February 19th, 2009, 10:35 PM

Thanks Baalz, that's a whole new way of looking at Transformation!

I didn't consider the upkeep-cost avoidance. I think when I tried it, instead of using it to mass-convert my expensive recruit-anywhere mages into support-free units (not to mention getting rid of the annoying magic path loss), I used it once on a unit with exceptional paths, and once on an summon. Both died, but I was probably just unlucky. I think in the first case, I had to wield boosters to cast Transformation too, and they were lost when the unit just died.

About the A4/A5 ... you could cast Ritual of Returning, I think, and go with A4S4 instead. Any Magic Duels will usually happen in the first round, so if that happens your god is toast either way.

Something else though ... you do get one free get-out-of-death card with A5, I didn't consider that before. If you have to Call God to get him back and you started with A5, it's not as much of a problem as it is if you had taken A4. My plans in one game required extensive modification after my supposedly immortal A4F4 god was killed, bringing me down to A3F3.

chrispedersen · #6 February 20th, 2009, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vfb

Thanks Baalz, that's a whole new way of looking at Transformation!

I didn't consider the upkeep-cost avoidance. I think when I tried it, instead of using it to mass-convert my expensive recruit-anywhere mages into support-free units (not to mention getting rid of the annoying magic path loss), I used it once on a unit with exceptional paths, and once on an summon. Both died, but I was probably just unlucky. I think in the first case, I had to wield boosters to cast Transformation too, and they were lost when the unit just died.

About the A4/A5 ... you could cast Ritual of Returning, I think, and go with A4S4 instead. Any Magic Duels will usually happen in the first round, so if that happens your god is toast either way.

Something else though ... you do get one free get-out-of-death card with A5, I didn't consider that before. If you have to Call God to get him back and you started with A5, it's not as much of a problem as it is if you had taken A4. My plans in one game required extensive modification after my supposedly immortal A4F4 god was killed, bringing me down to A3F3.

Sounds like a diseased phoenix problem = ) And if you didn't have +luck I'm not at all surprised at the duel deaths. My #1 use for transformation is if I want to break into blood. I transform CBM Treelords. They retain the blood path, but the unique becomes resummonable. Its the best way I know to break into blood.

AreaOfEffect · #7 February 20th, 2009, 03:29 AM

First, loved your. Big fan.

Second, I haven't experienced the unluckyness that other people have with transform. I usually just end up feebleminded after about 10 castings.

Third, it is clear to me that the angle on this guide is non-standard and worth mentioning. If people want to put forth an astral/death angle, that's great. Just do it in your own guide.

Fourth, have you cast wind ride recently. Last I knew it was worthless as it couldn't transport a unit further then 1 province. This is the second time you've mentioned it recently and I can't be sure you are using the same spells I'm using.

Amorphous · #8 February 20th, 2009, 04:48 AM

I have used Transformation to good effect, as well.

According to the manual there is a 20% chance of feeblemind or death, but to be honest I have had much better results than that.

In my last game - playing MA Man - I used it extensively with my crones (20+ times or so) and only had 2 of them feebleminded and no death at all. And this was with neutral luck-scales in normal, where Transformation costs 8 nature gems.

Thing is, if you have a sizeable contingent of N3 mages that benefit from Transformation, you probably will be able to summon Faerie Queens eventually, so feeblemindedness is not that much of a problem, as it can be healed. And, as Baalz mentioned, the deaths are very much mitigated by the fact that the mages that do not die are upkeep-free.

This does not mean that using Transformation is always a good idea, but as far as I can see Baalz uses it with good reason here. Oceania needs better magic on land, and Transformation goes a long way towards providing it.

Last, but not least: Thank you for a very good guide Baalz!

Baalz · #9 February 20th, 2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect

First, loved your. Big fan.
Fourth, have you cast wind ride recently. Last I knew it was worthless as it couldn't transport a unit further then 1 province. This is the second time you've mentioned it recently and I can't be sure you are using the same spells I'm using.

Full disclosure, I haven't actually done this in practice, just seemed pretty good in theory reading the spell description. If it doesn't work as described then this might not work well. Oh well, was a side bonus strategy anyway, you really took the air magic for fog warriors and boosters.

Were you casting it at size 2, non-ethereal, non-earth mages?

Humakty · #10 February 20th, 2009, 10:59 AM

I have massively used transformation with pangaea on Glory of the Gods (so it was really a huge number of pans), and even if I don't recommend using it on a mage having rare randoms, like the ones who get the 10 % ones, it is surely a good thing to do on your every day mage.
The 'every day' of pans being bazillions of non sacred upkeep.

Once you get going, it's really hard to stop yourself casting it on each of those gold robbing bastards.

...very good guide Baalz