Fixing up Tartarians ?

[chrispedersen]

tarts are still usable as troops even before they are gor'd.
Monstrums fly and have 300+hp...

[Graeme Dice]

Basically, one way to check their balance would be to see what price you'd have to pay for a Dai Oni, at 55 death gems, to be as good a buy as a tartarian. Then make Tartarians slightly more expensive that that so that a Dai Oni is a better choice for Sninuyama.

[Micah]

@Graeme - Why would you balance the entire game around a single overpriced national summon?

I maintain that having good, cheap, badass summons as a universal endgame option is an essential ingredient for play balance given how wildly imbalanced nations are against each other, and the luck of the draw inherent in picking up indie mages with non-national paths. Choking off one of the major factors balancing the playing field is a bad idea. People are also fond of overstating how effective tarts are, the non GoR ones aren't all that, especially if they're feebleminded and rocking a 13 base MR for enemy charm/slay spells. The latest CBM also knocked their HP down some.

[Graeme Dice]

Well, I wouldn't necessarily balance the entire game around them (They are definetly overpriced compared to wraith lords for example), I just would like for more than two nations per game to have access to effective summonable endgame units. This why I like the idea behind Llamabeast's EDM, even if I'm not certain that it's perfectly balanced in its current state.

[Agent Smith]

It would be pretty interesting if the Shattered soul tag made it so that the unit would go insane and Attack the province it was in, like when you wish for one of the Doom horrors or something, except at a lower chance than 50/50 of course.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by thejeff

It's that for a chance at a usable Tart. It's a really good deal if you've got the Chalice or GoH, but if you don't, most of them are afflicted even if they're not feebleminded. And of those that aren't feebleminded, a good chunk don't have the slots to be SC material or wind up with poor paths for it.

I think that's the problem right there. You can't set a fair price for nations without the Chalice/GoH without having tarts be too cheap for nations with one of those. An easy way to solve this would be to have tarts arrive without afflictions. Then you'd have one model to use in setting their price in relation to other options.

[thejeff]

True, though I like the flavor of them being crippled. Of it being a gamble that you'll get something usable. Though much of that would remain, with the random paths and random types.

Is that moddable? If so, I'd like to see it tried. If not, it won't happen without a code change, which means it won't happen. And I'd prefer my previous suggestion of making their afflictions completely unhealable.

[Valerius]

Yes, it's definitely moddable. In Momentum 2 I had them arrive without afflictions, as commanders, and without shattered soul.

I also let specific types of tarts be summoned, but I wouldn't do that again. I agree that part of the fun is not knowing what type you'll get and, as Psycho pointed out in that game, only a few types would get summoned if there's a choice.

[Squirrelloid]

I don't think the fact that they arrive afflicted is a problem. You need to price other options against tarts assuming the person summoning them has the chalice or GoH - because people looking for alternatives will be trying to counter the person who is using tarts and has one or both. They need those other options to be competitive with affliction-free tarts.

[thejeff]

But then you make them an option limited to one or two nations. Only worth using if you can cure them.

Which might be fine if you're using the endgame diversity mod, so everyone has some options, but without it those without strong national summons will be too limited.