Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

[DRG]

Yes Michael, but there are no on map heavy guns in this game so the only use for a Heavy truck is to transport the heavy mortar section. Either way, there is WAY too much obsessing over trucks in this game by a tiny minority of players and I regret not putting an end to multiple truck types 2 decades ago and simply stuck with generic Light, medium and heavy truck. But it's a slippery slope...accomadate one request and then it turns into a flood and I have little interest of time to debate when a specific truck was introduce..... It's a waste of time and OOB slots and the VAST majority of players just want something that can carry what they want it to carry...ZiS-5-ZiS-4 is irrelevant. Truck light, medium, heavy nomenclature is mainly an indicator of what they can carry so that the correct carry capacity could be assigned so that players would not be offered types that could not carry the gun assigned but that started getting screwed up as more " detail " truck types were added that deviated in carry capacity from one to the other in the same class instead of sticking with generics so by trying to accommodate "historical accuracy" we created un-necessary complication.

That said, next release we have "solved" the problem of players having to be careful when buying towed guns/ mortars that the transport they pick to move it will actually carry the gun/ mortar they want to move about. Andy has added code that will ONLY list the vehicles that have the capacity to tow/ carry the gun/mortar that was selected which has allowed me to add things like Jeeps to the artillery prime mover class for light AT guns.....but if the player selects a 100mm ATG the jeep won't show as a possible transport choice.

This does not mean there is no use for Light, medium and heavy truck. I could change the Russian OOB so that the Hcy mortar were transported by prime mover class but that means 120 mm would be offered Stalinets and SOMEBODY would complain so things like the Russian Hvy Mor Pl/M will still be carried by a "Heavy Truck" Zis

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

Yes Michael, but there are no on map heavy guns in this game so the only use for a Heavy truck is to transport the heavy mortar section.

There is very heavy on-map #366 122mm 31 FG (7t), but it wasn't towed by any truck anyway

BTW: there are no motorized howitzers currently.

Originally Posted by DRG

That said, next release we have "solved" the problem of players having to be careful when buying towed guns/ mortars that the transport they pick to move it will actually carry the gun/ mortar they want to move about.

That's a great news
Out of curiosity, which carry capacity is needed to carry guns with 1, 2 or 3 weight?

If you needed info on carry capability (typical loads), in order:
* Jeep / GAZ-67: 45 mm ATG (some 0.6t)
* Komsomolets: 45mm ATG, 76mm IG (0.8t)
* T-27 - surely nothing more than above

* T-26T: 76mm AT/FG (up to 2t)
* Dodge WC: 120mm mortars (0.5t), 57mm AT, 76mm AT/G (up to 2t)

* Studebaker: 76mm FG, 122mm FH (2.5t), 100mm AT (some 3t)
* STZ-5: 76mm AT/FG, 122mm FH, 85mm AA (4.5t)
* Halftrack: 57mm AT, 100 mm AT, 85mm AA
* ZiS-42: up to 85mm AA (4.5t)

* Stalinets, Ya-12: everything including 122mm FG (7t)

It seems, that 100mm ATG was practically in the same weight class as 85mm AA.

It's worth to copy #828 Studebaker, #043 Halftrack and ZiS-42 as prime movers, since it was one of their typical uses.

Possibly there's no need to create prime mover Jeeps - Light AT guns (class 157) can be towed by utility vehicles?

As for 120mm mortar question, unfortunately I have no info, what towed them before Dodge (apart from accidental usage of Komsomolets, and of course horses), but it seems there was no need of a heavy truck... just thinking. Pre-war heavy trucks on the other hand didn't tow guns, due to lack of off-road capabilities and too low power.

-------
Misc. comments:

344 Boys Carrier (utility veh.) - it seems, that Boys carrier should rather be available as an option for APC track class (like #467 Bren carrier). As utility vehicle, one MG should be enough (Bren or DT). BTW: carriers were most often known as "Universal Mk.I".

452 107mm Howitzer - should have single-tail icon 2117 (in fact, it was 107mm Field Gun)

86 Yak-9B - it could carry only up to 4x100 kg bombs (vertically, in a bomb bay). But this special variant (B- bomber) appeared only from 12/44. Ordinary Yak-9 fighters generally aren't known to carry bombs, nor even RS-82 rockets... At that time the Soviets seem to leave ground attacks to Il-2. Only early Yaks did carry rockets. They also could carry two bombs, but bomb racks were usually removed in units to improve performance.

144 Yak-9B - ...therefore I suggest to rename it to Yak-1, which, according to books, was fitted with RS-82 rockets from 10/41 (it should also have two #159 7.62 MGs instead of 12.7 one then). It could receive a new photo.

411 Yak-9U - as well, it could be changed to Yak-1, which received bombs around the same time as rockets (10/41?).

139 Yak-9T - heavier variant, with 37mm gun. Rockets should rather be removed

660 LaGG-1 - in fact, this designation was not used, and according to Russian books it was changed from a beginning to LaGG-3 (along with increased fuel tanks). But there were no aircraft armed with 2x20mm and 2x12.7mm. First aircraft had 3x12.7mm and 2x7.62mm, then from the 12th series most typical 1x20 and 1x12.7 mm.

Also, only from the 11th or 12th series (late 41) there were introduced rockets
First aircraft entered service only in 3/41 - so the unit #660 could be an early strafer, and the unit #661 might remain, with corrected guns. Same for guns of unit #140.

That's all as for now.
...I can't promise if there will be further research, I'm tired as well

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

That's a great news
Out of curiosity, which carry capacity is needed to carry guns with 1, 2 or 3 weight?

It has always been crew size + weight.......if crew is 5 and gun weighs 1 then it needs a vehicle with a carry capacity of 6 or more to transport it

...but DO NOT even THINK about producing a list of " corrections" for this..... I'm NOT interested. All we did this for was to make it easier on players looking to find a vehicle that could transport a gun without the " surprise" on deployment that the vehicle chosen cannot tow the gun..... that will no longer be an issue but I am NOT going to start adjusting carry caps and weight to existing guns and vehicles.... whats there now is what it stays.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

That's all as for now.
...I can't promise if there will be further research, I'm tired as well

BELIEVE ME............It is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to be more "tired" of this constant nit picking than I am.....

[Griefbringer]

At the risk of being considered as a nit-picker, I would also like to take the opportunity to add in a few comments about various units and formations:

a.) Unit 358 (T-26TU M1932) is armed with a long-barrelled 37 mm gun, with an ammo load of 160 HE rounds, 62 sabot rounds and 0 AP rounds. I presume that this is an accidental carry-over from unit 176 (T-26TU M1931), which is armed with a short-barreled 37 mm gun. Thus, maybe the sabot rounds (or at least most of them) on unit 358 should be replaced with regular AP ammo.

b.) Units 170, 171 (both MS-1/T-18), 176 (T-26TU M1931) and 364 (BA-27) are armed with weapon 12 (37 mm PP pbr. 15R), with range 64 (representing an infantry gun used for indirect fire). However, the actual armament for these vehicles apparently was a local variant of the French 37 mm Puteaux gun - a weapon which in other OOBs has a range of 35 hexes but is missing from the Soviet OOB. I would suggest adding such a weapon entry to the OOB and re-arming the mentioned vehicles with this weapon.

c.) Units 009 and 528 (both M3L) are currently class 12 (light tank) while other lend-lease tanks in this OOB are of class 120 (lend-lease tank), including other light lend-lease tanks.

d.) Unit 374 (107 mm Mort Sect) is currently class 5 (mortar). Considering the size of this weapon, maybe class 152 (heavy mortar) would be more appropriate.

e.) Unit 274 (Para Mortar) is armed with weapon 217 (82 mm para mortar), with a range of 20 hexes. As far as I am aware, the Soviet military did not develop any paratrooper variants of their mortars in the timescope of this game, with the airborne forces employing same mortars as regular infantry. Thus I would suggest re-arming this unit with regular 82 mm mortars instead. (For those interested in organisational information, for most of the war airborne battalions seem to have included a mortar company armed with six 82 mm mortars.)

f.) Speaking of airborne units and mortars, airborne rifle companies historically had a tiny mortar platoon of three 50 mm mortars, operated by a handful of men. Such armament unfortunately seems to be missing from the para companies currently present in game (at least formations 008, 054, 161 and 168). Instead, these have a MG section that seems not to have been part of the historical airborne rifle company organisation, with the airborne units concentrating all of their MGs in a battalion level MG platoon/company. Thus, I would suggest replacing the MG section in the mentioned formations with a new para support section (armed with rifles, three 50 mm mortars and a crew somewhere between 9 and 12 men).

g.) Glider formations 140 and 142 become available only at 1/43, while the G-11 glider (unit 200) that is used in these formations becomes available 1/42 (and there are no other units than gliders in these two formations).

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Griefbringer

At the risk of being considered as a nit-picker, I would also like to take the opportunity to add in a few comments about various units and formations:

a.) Unit 358 (T-26TU M1932) is armed with a long-barrelled 37 mm gun, with an ammo load of 160 HE rounds, 62 sabot rounds and 0 AP rounds. I presume that this is an accidental carry-over from unit 176 (T-26TU M1931), which is armed with a short-barreled 37 mm gun. Thus, maybe the sabot rounds (or at least most of them) on unit 358 should be replaced with regular AP ammo.

b.) Units 170, 171 (both MS-1/T-18), 176 (T-26TU M1931) and 364 (BA-27) are armed with weapon 12 (37 mm PP pbr. 15R), with range 64 (representing an infantry gun used for indirect fire). However, the actual armament for these vehicles apparently was a local variant of the French 37 mm Puteaux gun - a weapon which in other OOBs has a range of 35 hexes but is missing from the Soviet OOB. I would suggest adding such a weapon entry to the OOB and re-arming the mentioned vehicles with this weapon.

c.) Units 009 and 528 (both M3L) are currently class 12 (light tank) while other lend-lease tanks in this OOB are of class 120 (lend-lease tank), including other light lend-lease tanks.

d.) Unit 374 (107 mm Mort Sect) is currently class 5 (mortar). Considering the size of this weapon, maybe class 152 (heavy mortar) would be more appropriate.

e.) Unit 274 (Para Mortar) is armed with weapon 217 (82 mm para mortar), with a range of 20 hexes. As far as I am aware, the Soviet military did not develop any paratrooper variants of their mortars in the timescope of this game, with the airborne forces employing same mortars as regular infantry. Thus I would suggest re-arming this unit with regular 82 mm mortars instead. (For those interested in organisational information, for most of the war airborne battalions seem to have included a mortar company armed with six 82 mm mortars.)

f.) Speaking of airborne units and mortars, airborne rifle companies historically had a tiny mortar platoon of three 50 mm mortars, operated by a handful of men. Such armament unfortunately seems to be missing from the para companies currently present in game (at least formations 008, 054, 161 and 168). Instead, these have a MG section that seems not to have been part of the historical airborne rifle company organisation, with the airborne units concentrating all of their MGs in a battalion level MG platoon/company. Thus, I would suggest replacing the MG section in the mentioned formations with a new para support section (armed with rifles, three 50 mm mortars and a crew somewhere between 9 and 12 men).

g.) Glider formations 140 and 142 become available only at 1/43, while the G-11 glider (unit 200) that is used in these formations becomes available 1/42 (and there are no other units than gliders in these two formations).

I do NOT have the time or inclination to get into debates with people about their nit picking ...YES some things may be legitimate errors but it's been going on for 20 years and it's getting old

a/ did you bother to review the "sabot" weapon stats for the weapon Unit 358 uses ?? There is a significant improvement on range and penetration over the one used for unit 176 so I see no reason to change that unit, Unless someone produces proof I can confirm It represents AP ammo that did not have the effective range of it's HE ammo and that is.........( I assume.....am I expected to remember every detail of every unit added to these games ??)..... why it's been set up like that. As stated in the game guide " sabot" can also represent AP ammo that does not have the effective range of it's HE ammo but ..OF COURSE that now opens up a new can-o-worms with any other unit that uses that weapon......and why this is all getting very , very tiresome..... I USED TO enjoy developing these games further but we're both getting worn down. This is a weapon on a vehicle that contributed NOTHING of significance in the half decade it existed in the mid 1930's... how do you define "nit-picking"?? Actual"sabot" ammo did not even exist during this vehicles service life so it's "sabot" is short(er) range AP

c.)...... and that's not " nit-picking" ?? How does it's unitclass affect the game or gameplay ? And if you'd bothered to look you would have found the M3L is ALSO in the OOB as WC120 "lend-lease" so we have allowed it to appear in both the lend least formations AND the regular light tank formations...so why do you think that is a problem for you given it's been like that for AT LEAST a decade and a half ?

e.) Unit 274 (Para Mortar) is set up as an infantry unit for direct fire only which is why it has the reduced range. It is a game design decision that also exists in other OOB's as well

f.) see above. It *may be* that this was intended to represent those 50's.....IDK. I cannot be expected to remember the reason every unit in both games was added and why but I will spend the time to investigate. What I DO know is unit 274 has been set up like that for at least 15 years

That's all I'm going to comment on.....if it changes for next release I either agreed with you or saw no reason to disagree. If it doesn't change don't assume I "overlooked" it

[DRG]

That is correct. The shots represents bursts of fire for weapons like that in both games and has for now going on 2 decades.

[DRG]

Only arty in the off map classes can CB....there could be on map pieces that have >200 range but they do not CB

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

a/ did you bother to review the "sabot" weapon stats for the weapon Unit 358 uses ?? There is a significant improvement on range and penetration over the one used for unit 176 so I see no reason to change that unit, Unless someone produces proof I can confirm It represents AP ammo that did not have the effective range of it's HE ammo and that is.........( I assume.....am I expected to remember every detail of every unit added to these games ??)..... why it's been set up like that. As stated in the game guide " sabot" can also represent AP ammo that does not have the effective range of it's HE ammo but ..OF COURSE that now opens up a new can-o-worms with any other unit that uses that weapon......

Sorry to butt in, but it might be an error indeed, easy to fix. The only other unit to use long-bareel #14 37mm L46 B-3 is #114 BT-2, which has ordinary AP ammo only, and there's no reason why T-26 should have sabot. A performance of "sabot" in this gun is excellent - penetration 7 @20 hexes - better than long US 37mm. Therefore I believe it should be ordinary AP (with average value pen = 5).

BTW: there were few T-26 with B-3 gun - some 20-30 according to Kolomiets. Ordinary gun-armed twin-turret T-26 (#176) was also rarer - some 450 per 1627 twin-turret tanks, what could be reflected in rarity code.

BTW2: L/20 tank gun #12 37mm PP obr.15R is always referred to as "Hotchkiss gun" or "Hotchkiss PS" in Russian sources. Apparently the barrel length was unchanged comparing with the French one, however it got a different recoil mechanism (adapted from not-produced PS-1 gun, which was also supposed to get new barrel and stronger ammo, according to M. Svirin).
It could be renamed, since, as I wrote before, obr.15 Rosenberg infantry gun (a different Russian L/19 design) wasn't used anymore in the 1930s.

[DRG]

I will make the change only because I am sick and tired of arguing about this crap and I am being as polite as I possibly can. As for rarity code..... this is one thing that makes me despair more than ever.....given all the years you have been making comments about this game you have never seemed to learn that rarity code ONLY affects AI purchasing.....it has NOTHING to do with human play or how rare a piece of equipment might be in RL ( not that 450 units is "rare" )NOTHING. and we have explained that many times in the past and it is clearly stated in MOBHack help............. as well that tank 176 is ALREADY set to rare

That is the last OOB " suggestion" I want to hear from ANYONE

Merry F%$#*% Christmas