[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Wardad]

Are the hard hitters held back because of the WMD threat?

More importantly, Saddams Regime displayed the My Way Or No Way attitude by igniting the oil wells when leaving Kuwait. I also find it disturbing that citizens are shot for leaving the cities. Are the citizens to be used only as shields, or will they be sacrificed in an act of WMD suicide?

examples of (cult) leaders and mass suicidal incidents:
Hitler:
He ordered the destruction of German Infrastructure and ordered armed children to the front lines. All citizens were ordered to resist to the end.
He did not have WMDs and not all orders were obeyed.
Jones:
Jones Town suicide/massacre.
Loyal followers drank poison after forcing the doubters to drink first.
It was done after their chosen life style was threatened. US refused to send social security and pension checks to "imprisoned" elderly.
Waco:
Followers died in raging fire caused, in part, by spread of lamp oil accelerant. Some doubters were shot before they had a chance to run from the flames.

Baghdad lies near a river (valley?). A heavier than air gas or chemical could do a lot of harm in a closed valley. The WMDs were suppossedly hidden in civilian locations.
Very Very Scary Scenario...

[Baron Munchausen]

Thermodyne:

I don't know what the TV networks are reporting, but the 'special coverage' from NPR has definitely mentioned that Rumsfeld had a fantasy war plan that Iraq would crumble when our troops marched in. He wanted to send less than ONE division and rely on air power to handle any resistance. Think of what a disaster this would have been if the actual military men hadn't known better and fought for more troops. As it turned out, Turkey did us a favor by refusing access to the one heavy armored division we were going to send. Now they are going around and will re-inforce the invasion from the south much faster than a division could have been moved all the way from the US. It's still gonna be close to two weeks before they can arrive. Can you imagine how exhausted those Marines and Mechanized Infantry will be in another week or two? The northern front can be handled by the air-borne and special forces being dropped in.

Wardad:

Saddam will not committ suicide until and unless he has no remaining options. He's been trying to rouse the 'Arab nation' to serve him for decades. The war on Iran was as much a ploy to do this as to grab some territory and gain better access to the sea. Most Americans don't realize that Iranians are not Arabs, and there is a long-standing ethnic hatred between the Arabs and the Persians (i.e. Iranians). This is one reason that Iran is more-or-less standing aside and not interfering in the US invasion of Iraq. (Militias possibly excepted?)

Saddam's current strategy is still geared towards that same goal of rousing Pan-Arabism -- under his leadership of course. The 'Fedayin' and other irregulars cannot defeat US troops, and he knows it. He is sending people out to get slaughtered, on purpose, so he can have stories and pictures of the awful slaughter broadcast around the world. This would be why the civilians trying to leave the cities are killed, too. There must NOT be pictures of Iraqi civilians greeting US troops gladly or being aided by them in large numbers. Only pictures of battle and slaughter. So refugees have to be killed before they get in range of the western media cameras. Thanks to the Arabs having their own network this time around, his long-time desire might actually be realized. The resentment is building up fast, and I don't see how this war can possibly be ended in 'a few weeks' as Rumsfeld was fantasizing.

I suspect that the only way Saddam is likely to use WMD is if he can find some way to blame US forces for it. He must realize that he would destroy most of his 'moral advantage' even with other Arabs if he actually used the weapons he claimed he does not have. The mass slaughter is going well, anyway. Lots of bodies, in civilian clothes, are available for the Al Jazeera cameras every day. I wouldn't put it past him to have purposely bombed some neighborhoods in Bagdad in order to create photo-ops, either.

[ March 29, 2003, 20:40: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[tesco samoa]

WarDad... WMD gas ones are way over rated...

If the wind blows the wrong way their useless....

Their more for propaganda...

Now Nail Bombs etc... will cause way more deaths than WMD ever will in close quaters...

[tesco samoa]

Now on the lighter side

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/03/27/french030327?

Yea... Frenchs mustard is worried...

But shouldn't be as it does not go well with Freedom Toast..... "In other news, American cheese in France has been changed to idiot cheese" SNL - March 22nd 2003

Ha Ha... Man... I got a chuckle out of it.... Now back to my Wus Bacon !

[ March 29, 2003, 23:42: Message edited by: tesco samoa ]

[Andrés]

Don't underestimate Iraqi patriotism. Very few would gladly greet US troops. Saddam is not as hated as you suppose.

If I were in Saddam's place and I had WMD I would have already used many of them against US and its allies.
I insist that they haven't been used not found yet because of the simple fact that they do not exist.

He might most likely commit suicide himself to prevent being captured alive, but I don't think he'll ever massacrate his loyal followers.

Crazy Dog, keep posting those links, even if they are not perfectly acurate, it's hard to find info that is neither american nor arab propaganda.

[Crazy_Dog]

I know they are not perfect info, but in a running war that don't exist......
All sides, even the ones not fighting have they interests, and the battle of media today is one of the more importants.
These links are not perfect info, but IMHO they portrait a very credible / possible situation, more 'real' than the ones reported by US/Iraq.

[Crazy_Dog]

intel analysis update

http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...Id=954&sesid=2

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Andr&eacutes Lescano:
Don't underestimate Iraqi patriotism. Very few would gladly greet US troops. Saddam is not as hated as you suppose.

Iraqi "patriotism" differs from place to place. If you were to begin a jouney by car from Basra to Baghdad, you'd notice the change of loyalties quickly, especially from the lack of portraits of Saddam to the overabundance of them as you head further north.

And let me remind you of a very important fact: It's hard not to say "glory to saddam" when Uday's Fedayeen runs around shooting people in their foreheads, execution style.

[Andrés]

Living under a dictatorship is not as scary as you believe.
Only opposition activists are persecuted and treated brutally. Most people may have a few complains about the government granted (as they complain about the sanctions imposed by the international community), but they are not that desperate to have a regime change.
They had a relatively normal life that was disrupted when the bombing and fear began.
I wouldn't gladly greet US troops as my saviors, I'd blame them for all this terror around me.
Add patriotism (and propaganda if you want) to the equation and you'll have many people against the invaders and very few, the same ones that were persecuted by the goverment welcoming the US troops.

[Crazy_Dog]

Russian military intel update: War in Iraq, March 29

http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1069&sesid=2