Question about 101st

[Gizah]

I know that this is not a 101 forum but I figured this was my best place to get a question answered.

I dug out 101 the other day in anticipation of All American's impending release, and I encountered some of the same nagging problems that I had when I played this outstanding game the first time.

What sort of actions trigger demolition of targets in those missions requiring you to take out a target? In the blow the bridge mission one of my soldiers crawled to the middle of the bridge under heavy fire and the bridge blew and I was given a mission complete screen. I don't think he even had a demo charge or satchel on him. In the mission where you are to destroy the three communication poles, I have had a soldier dance all around those poles and their demolition is never triggered. This is frustrating since he was under cover of precious smoke and under fire the whole time. I am sure that the stick memebers had the requisite demolition equipment to do the job, why no trigger?

My only other tiny beefs that hopefully are being addressed in All American are:

The surrender effect seems forced. My soldier stands there with his hands up even though every enemy on that section of the map is neutralized and he is surrounded by healthy brothers in arms. It seems like requiring all enemy units to be subdued in order for him to recover his composure is a bit unrealistic. I can only imagine how warmly he would be welcomed back into the stick after the firefight is over

It seems a bit too hard for a soldier to spot an enemy in broad daylight,running out in the open. Especially when that particular soldier has already spotted that enemy before.

There needs to be some indication (or at least a chance for some indication) as to where enemy fire is coming from. Even if the information was very general like near, far, north, west, sonething like that. This information could even be sometimes inaccurate to model realistic battlefield conditions, but it seems that my soldiers would at least have a chance to know where fire is coming from.

When the spotting problem is coupled with the problem of not knowing where fire is coming from you can end up with an (unrealistic) mess. I had a German lying on the floor of a house take out two soldiers in the same room with him over the course of multiple turns. Even if he was lying under the bed, I think the third soldier would at least know that someone was shooting at them from INSIDE THE ROOM.

Anyone else agree or disagree with these concerns?

To avoid sounding too negative, these are relatively minor problems in what is a truly great game. I can't wait for All American to be released, hopefully, with some of these issues addressed.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Gizah:
There needs to be some indication (or at least a chance for some indication) as to where enemy fire is coming from. Even if the information was very general like near, far, north, west, sonething like that. This information could even be sometimes inaccurate to model realistic battlefield conditions, but it seems that my soldiers would at least have a chance to know where fire is coming from.

When the spotting problem is coupled with the problem of not knowing where fire is coming from you can end up with an (unrealistic) mess. I had a German lying on the floor of a house take out two soldiers in the same room with him over the course of multiple turns. Even if he was lying under the bed, I think the third soldier would at least know that someone was shooting at them from INSIDE THE ROOM.

Hi Gizah,

I had concerns about spotting also, but my main beef was that the night spotting was highly unrealistic because there were no muzzle flashes or detection by sound. Therefore a player had no idea where the enemy is in relation to his own troops. Your troops might as well return fire straigh up in the air.

Anyway, here is the link to the previous thread:

82nd concerns

[PvK]

Some good points there, though I think it makes sense to consider a comparison to less realistic games. Some of the points only stand out because the game is as realistic as it is, whereas in almost every other game, those kinds of issues don't even come up because they don't even try to give each character individual fog of war.

In a game with short turns and individual soldiers like 101, if a soldier spots an attacker as they attack, and survives the attack, it gives them the ability to respond immediately. That happens often enough, it seems to me, in 101. Far more likely, even at close range, is that someone attacked will not be able to respond immediately, due to panic, fear, stun, indecision, reflexes, confusion, misunderstanding, facing the wrong way, or simple failure to make sense of what is going on. This is represented by not spotting the enemy sometimes when they attack, and having to either guess and dive to cover, and/or take some time with the "Look" command trying to figure it out.

As for surrendering men, it would look better yes if they would not just stand still until the fight was over, but it would take a lot of programming to make them do what real surrendering soldiers would do. That would be cool to see, but imagination can serve, too. That is, in reality, they'd have to throw down their weapons and probably be ordered to walk towards the enemies they surrendered to. If that process were interrupted and it looked like they might change their minds and go for a weapon, any enemies might be highly inclined to shoot them before they got out of a vulnerable unarmed position. So, the assumption that you should be able to occupy just the location of the surrendered soldier and get him back, takes literally the behaviour of having him just stand in place, rather than being captured and probably ordered to a place where you probably would have to defeat the other enemies to get him back safely.

PvK

[Gizah]

Thanks for the responses. The link to the enemy spotting thread was informative. The surrendering rationalization does have some appeal and makes the game's depiction a little easier to deal with. Anyone have an answer to my demolition trigger question?

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Gizah:
Thanks for the responses. The link to the enemy spotting thread was informative. The surrendering rationalization does have some appeal and makes the game's depiction a little easier to deal with. Anyone have an answer to my demolition trigger question?

I can't recall, but maybe the "trigger" was fixed in the patch?

[Gizah]

Nope, I was playing with the current patch. Oh well, I moved on past that point without accomplishing that objective. As long as the triggers work in 82nd, I'll be happy. I had forgotten what a great game 101 is, this recent replay of mine has me on the edge of my seat for 82nd.
For example, my stick of 6 paratroopers (three of which were wounded) had completed their primary objective of blowing up a major bridge crossing. Having not discovered any secondary objectives, they decided to follow the main road to a small French hamlet marked on their map, hoping to root out "pockets of resistance". On the way, they were ambushed by two Germans lying in wait in the hedgerow bordering the road. Miraculosly, the ambushed failed and the two Nazis were eliminated without any casualties to the stick. Upon a search of their equipment a panzerfaust was discovered and confiscated. By dawn the next day, as they continued their trek down the roadway (even more vigilant for hidden Germans) they ultimately heard the ominous sound of enemy armor on the move. (Actually, during the enemy move phase the screen showed "tank", but I used my imagination. Hopefully, 82nd will incorporate appropriate "tank sounds"). As the stick spread out to search for the enemy a tank burst through the hedgerow at the south end of a field. The stick was spread out at the northeast corner of the field, which was enclosed by hedge on all sides. As they dashed for the cover of the north and east hedgerows, the sergeant was cut down by a withering hail of machine gun fire from the tank. Three soldiers wriggled through the eastern hedge and sprinted southward through the field on the other side of the hedge hoping to flank the tank. One of these stalwart souls had the captured panzerfaust slung over his back. Hopefully, the hedge would conceal them from the tank and not contain enemy snipers, because at the speed they were running they wouldn't spot any hidden nazis until it was too late. The remaining stick members took cover in the northeast hedge so that they could keep track of the tank's position without (hopefully) being subject to any more machine gun fire. The first soldier to arrive at the hedgerow bordering the spot where the tank broke through was PFC McCurry. He clawed through the hedge on his belly and emerged less than twenty feet from the treads of the enemy tank. It had stopped just inside the south hedge scanning for targets to the north. McCurry had arrived near the southern hedge well before the other two soldiers who were carrying the bulky panzerfaust and the squad's only BAR. He stared at his trusty Garand and shook his head. Wait! I've still got a satchel charge that wasn't needed for the demo job we did on the bridge! A few seconds later, the charge ripped through the hull of the tank. That's for Sarge, McCurry thought. As the other two soldiers joined McCurry on their bellies in the hedge, Swenson still holding the panzerfaust cursed, Dammit! Looks like we're gonna need this thing after all. Over the roar of the flames from the disabled tank, the clanking of another set of treads could be clearly heard. Swenson sprinted to a position at the front of the disabled tank, positioning the wreckage between him and the south hedge. Before the other two soldiers could extricate themselves from the cover of the thick shrubs the second tank crashed through the southern hedge. The panzerfaust shell contacted the tank between the turret and hull, and the second nazi tank was consumed in a series of deafening explosions as the intial bLast cooked off the shells inside.

By the end of encounter, my stick of six had taken out 2 tanks and the six german infantry accompanying it. Only one american soldier was lost. The captured panzerfaust and the left over satchel charge were literally the only equipment in their possession that could have taken a tank out. This was just a random encounter, but is was more exciting to play than some of the primary missions. Great fun!

[ July 30, 2002, 23:00: Message edited by: Gizah ]