So how 'bout those Mets?

[archaeolept]

lol, nothing like. however, the "teachers" in this case actively worked to dismiss the concerns of the students, and put forth as if there were no problem. Have you forgotten the discussions on VQs, on clams, on castling? My own experience is that any concerns I had were dismissed by mods because i "must just be a newbie", and incompetent, if I couldn't deal w/ VQ's or castles...

obviously something was broken, but there was not even a hint of acknowledgement of that fact.

the real discussions, and work, concerning what was going on certainly seemed to have taken place completely outside of the teachers' lounge, which to all appearances was rather out of touch. As is the way such things often go.

[Gandalf Parker]

lol, nothing like. however, the "teachers" in this case actively worked to dismiss the concerns of the students, and put forth as if there were no problem. Have you forgotten the discussions on VQs, on clams, on castling? My own experience is that any concerns I had were dismissed by mods because i "must just be a newbie", and incompetent, if I couldn't deal w/ VQ's or castles...

obviously something was broken, but there was not even a hint of acknowledgement of that fact.

the real discussions, and work, concerning what was going on certainly seemed to have taken place completely outside of the teachers' lounge, which to all appearances was rather out of touch. As is the way such things often go.

Actually those conversations were well followed, and in fact the VQ was changed. The clam conversations are also followed but no solution has come forth. Of course these are a couple of minor points in the overall list of things being worked on. There were also acknowledgments given by the developers and the beta team members. You might take note of the people who did receive answers, specifically the differences between their threads and the wording of them. Again, the end justifiying the means does not fly with everyone if you are waiting for some sort of thank you response.

Im sure if I worded this in the same language and tone that some people use to put their points across, that it would be much better understood. Unfortunately I would get in trouble for that unless I created a new login and sent it anonymously.

lol, nothing like. however, the "teachers" in this case actively worked to dismiss the concerns of the students, and put forth as if there were no problem. Have you forgotten the discussions on VQs, on clams, on castling? My own experience is that any concerns I had were dismissed by mods because i "must just be a newbie", and incompetent, if I couldn't deal w/ VQ's or castles...

No, the reason it was dismissed was because there was no proven factual information in it. The tiring "Norfleet beat me with X and I don't think that is fare" is not a good enough excuse, ever. If someone else replaces it, if suddenly Tauren13 starts beating everyone with Lord of the Gates and Stingers, we're not going to use the logical thinking that he must be cheating and take the concerns of what the issues are (I.E. Lord of the Gates and Stingers) for their value in standard game, not some sort of cheating game.

obviously something was broken, but there was not even a hint of acknowledgement of that fact.

And it was exactly the opposite of what people said "The VQ is broken" and not "Norfleet is cheating with the VQ". In such discussions, newbies were coming up with their own horror stories of getting beat by one handed Vampires with oodles of clams saying it was fact. Maybe an investigation should be done by anyone who stood on the 'pro-nerf' side of the fence of anything, yeah? Damn cheaters.

the real discussions, and work, concerning what was going on certainly seemed to have taken place completely outside of the teachers' lounge, which to all appearances was rather out of touch. As is the way such things often go.

Then the VQ wouldn't have been balanced as it was, for the reasonings that it was. Clams wouldn't have been disregarded as "Something that can be exploited, if you have exactly the right circumstances" and Castles would all cost 600 Gold, yes?

The price of using such broad statements is you tend to selectively forget the past conversations and reasons why things were done or in this case, not done.

[Truper]

I thought you were smarter than that. Norfleet was in fact a well worn topic of discussion in the dominions developer forum. And in the shrapnel Moderators forum. Norfleet had sanctions against him and a watchful eye on his actions well before Stormbinder started being so loud. You sound like a high school kid who is mad that he doesnt know what goes on in the teachers lounge.

And so we come to the most patronizing comment yet. "Trust us kiddies, even though we grownups have made no mention in any public place that there has been a problem here at school, rest assured that we in our wisdom have taken steps to insure your safety and well-being. It is not for you to know what's being done, or even that anything is being done, just trust us and everything will be fine. Now just run along and go play in the schoolyard, while we get back to our serious buisiness in the teachers lounge."

It has of course been possible to read between the lines of various occurances in the forums, the patches and elsewhere to infer that there is a real problem, and that things have been done about it, but to my mind an explicit statement from Illwinter and/or Shrapnel acknowledging that a problem exists and stating that solutions are being investegated is not too much to ask for. Since such a statement has never been made, its understandable that some have reached the conclusion that the powers that be have their head in the sand.

[Gandalf Parker]

but to my mind an explicit statement from Illwinter and/or Shrapnel acknowledging that a problem exists and stating that solutions are being investegated is not too much to ask for. Since such a statement has never been made, its understandable that some have reached the conclusion that the powers that be have their head in the sand.

Please do a search and give me some examples. What problems were not acknowledged by Illwinter? I got tired of telling people to SEARCH or READ the whole thread. Usually Kristoffer O, Johan O, or Johan K, replied quite nicely early in the thread. The fact that they stopped replying, and sometimes even stopped reading, a thread later when it got less informative and more demanding seems to be a lesson that some people never quite figured out. The beta testers tended to hang on the longest but eventually even the most diplomatic of them tends to drop off. Searching on those names and doing some reading should make it clear to most how to best get something accomplished (and how to best screw it up).

[johan osterman]

... It has of course been possible to read between the lines of various occurances in the forums, the patches and elsewhere to infer that there is a real problem, and that things have been done about it, but to my mind an explicit statement from Illwinter and/or Shrapnel acknowledging that a problem exists and stating that solutions are being investegated is not too much to ask for. Since such a statement has never been made, its understandable that some have reached the conclusion that the powers that be have their head in the sand.

Im still not sure what the real problem you are refering to is, clams? or Norfleet? And how should it have been aknowledged If the problem you believe we were ignoring was Norfleet possibly cheating I don't see what you feel should have been handled differently. There was occasional instances when Norfleet triggered cheat prevention alarms. He also pulled his somewhat underhanded coup on Stormbinder. But these aren't reasons to issue an offical illwinter fatwah on him, in my mind. If you find these sorts of instances troubling or if you believed Norfleet was cheating the obvious ploy would have been avoid playing with Norfleet. If it isn't Norfleet's cheating you consider there being an official osprey behaviour on what is it, the clams? If so I still do not agree that they are overpowered, I also still do not see how it should have been handled differently. In fact the possibility of Norfleet cheating before only lends credence to our previous standpoints. And Norfleet apparantly very succesfully utilising a strategy is hardly cause for Nerfing it in the first place. Especially since other appeared to have problems reproducing it. So like an older thread suggested the problem with clamming was Norfleet, wether from extraordinary skill or cheating.

[Stormbinder]

Consider this Gandelf: If you personally would be on the receiving end of this crap in the first place, and had the game which you have created and invested so much of your personal time and energy ruined in such a way it was, maybe you would feel slightly different about it, don't you think? You know, it's always quite easy to judge about "ends" and "means" from the side. In fact, to be honest with you, my own position would be more similar to yours as well, if I would be in your shoes. But to be totally fair, you have to take into consideration the fact that it is hard to expect from the party which was on the receiving end of such things (twice by now), to remain 100% cool and calm and take everything with a good sense of humor. >;(

/Edited out a Personal Email from Kristoffer O./ - Zen


To Zen: I didn't suggested to you that you ban Norfleet before the Illwinter would take a chance to look and decide what's going on here. But I do feel that it may not be the best solution in this situation to just lock the thread with no explanation, as it was another silly flamewar and nothing more, instead of at least saying something on this matter before you lock it, even like posting your personal opinion. After all you are the most experienced player around, not just a forum moderator. You have read yourself blatant lies that Norfleet said about this game, answering my questions. You have read the numbers that KristoferO and me posted on the board. Do you honestly think that there is any way short of cheating to have 5000 gems in such game by turn 23 ?!?

But that's ok, I didn't expected anything else from him, so it doesn't bother me at all. But when instead of saying "thanks", you , the forum moderator and very dedicated Dom2 MP player on your own, keep calling me "another side of Norfleet's coin", as if it was me who had cheated, I do feel a bit hurt by it, frankly.

I don't think that somebody who exposed cheater, should be equaled with the cheater, just because that somebody was *really* hurt and irritated by this very subject of cheating, which happened to him in his own game, but he didn't have hard proof of it at that time. But if you really think that there is no real difference here between the cheater and the one who was cheated, and who spend a lot of time gathering and preparing all these evidence to expose cheater, to the benefit of the entire players MP community, I am not going to argue with you. I am leaving it up to you to decide.

Stormbinder

It might be said that in certain circles, Norfleet was known to have behavior that would be considered cheating but could not be proven directly as such, but it was well known that he is/was at some time.

[Cainehill]

As for Illwinter's position - here are some excepts from KristofferO letter to me, that he send after you locked that thread:

And once again Stormbinder displayed _his_ glaring lack of ethics / common courtesy, quoting a private email publicly, just as he used wiretaps to quote from conversations (ie, logged irc chats and publicly posted them, akin to illegally tapping a telephone line).

I'm not saying that Norfleet is necessarily innocent of cheating. I'm just saying that I find Stormbinder's actions, attitudes, and diatribes disgusting and reprehensible - and he wants to be thanked for this?

To the point of sending harassing private Messages, asking if I have the "guts" to say I'm sorry to Stormvomit, after having been told I didn't want private Messages from him.

Stormbinder, to once again quote your acronom : I'm sorry you didn't FOAD.

[The_Tauren13]

And once again Stormbinder displayed _his_ glaring lack of ethics / common courtesy, quoting a private email publicly

To the point of sending harassing private Messages, asking if I have the "guts" to say I'm sorry to Stormvomit, after having been told I didn't want private Messages from him.

you have a tendency to be hypocritical