Why no love for Caelum?

[The_Tauren13]

that sounds very reasonable, zen.
perhaps thats why i like small, clear maps like inland or urgaia

[Stormbinder]

That is the absolute first time I've heard of Caelum being the 'province defense killers'.

Everything happens for the first time Zen. Name any other national 100gp commander who can kill/rout any realistic number of PD without any items. Single Sauromancer with raise skeletons (or Dwarf with bladewind) would not even come close, despite costing 180gp. Unlike skeletons, flase horrors are flying, eterial, high defense, and they mostly rout, not kill. The effect is the same though.

Master's of the Way. Seithkona, Theurgs (At 150), Initiates of the Deep.

There are quite a few, they just don't happen to all fly as well. If you are so concerned with PD and their lack of fightability during any stage of the game, you are probably up the ganjies without a paddle.

[Boron]

hm i didn't play caelum much and have not an as long expierience in dominions as you zen and stormbinder but i think stormbinder is really right about caelum .

until turn 20-30 you have a very hard time to defend against a good caelum player i think .

that all their troops have magic weapons is brutal.
earlygame some caelum fliers can kill almost every sc pretender who needs to buff first and has little protection .

they can produce the most mages and everywhere .
earlygame the battle lightning spells like lightning / orbligthning are very brutal too because most nations can't protect their troops in this stage via lightning .

then just switch to stormbinders described battle tactic .
even for a seraph with 2a the false horror causes only about 9 fatigue( when i understand the sytem right perhaps a bit more or less) so he can masssummon horrorhordes .

20 mages doing this is would be 40 horrors each combat round and as caelum 20 mages are hard to get .

they have airqueens later as Uberscs and they can clamhoard .

from cold 3 you get +120 extrapretenderpoints and you can take sloth 3 too with them .


i think the main problem is that no other nation can earlygame attack 5-10 provinces in 1 turn with stormbinders described methods .

this way they easy can encircle others and then when they rout all is wiped out .
scs who need to buff do bad against them .

so i think stormbinder and cohen are really true claiming caelum is too strong .

[Stormbinder]

Master's of the Way.

You can not beat PD up to 20 with W1 1? mage without items. (unless you are hoping to get 1 Air pick and cast the same Lesser Horrors that I mentioned. Which would not be as efficient as W1 A2 seraphs. Forzen Hearts will not stop large PD.)Also he is not flying, not stealthy, meaning he can only attack provinces next to him.

Seithkona,

Same as with Master of way. You can not beat PD up to 20 with S D N mage. Also not flying, not stealthy, meaning can attack only province next to him.

Theurgs (At 150),

This one the only mage from those you mentioned that can do it. (Which is not a surprise since they have exactly the same magic paths as seraph ). However they cost 50% more than seraph. They can't fly, meaning can't attack anything other them province next to them, unless you are going to waste 3 air gems to send him on suicide mission deep into enemy back, which is not a good trade.

Initiates of the Deep.

You gotta be kidding Zen. W1 Initiate of the Deep beating 20 PD without items? Quickness and frozen hearts? Yeah, right.

There are quite a few, they just don't happen to all fly as well. If you are so concerned with PD and their lack of fightability during any stage of the game, you are probably up the ganjies without a paddle.

Zen, you are missing the point. You said "That is the absolute first time I've heard of Caelum being the 'province defense killers".

Than you have tried to bring some examples of other nation being as good PD killers as Caelum at the same cost (100 gp). As I showed above - they do not even come close. The fact that PD suck in general is well know to everybody and totally irrelivent to the discussion of either Caelum is the best PD killer or not.

[JJ_Colorado]

Caelum has strengths but to say that they are too strong is just panic. Most nations have some strengths. It's how you play the nation that makes them strong. I have seen games where Caelum is destroyed in the early game, games where Caelum is destroyed in the mid-game, and hopefully soon a game where Caelum is about to be destroyed in the late-game (by me - LOL).

Anyway, Abysia has great strengths as well. Some people think their blood magic is almost unstoppable if they survive to middle game. I know that's not true.

Some people think Ermor is unstoppable all the time. I know that's not true.

Some people think Arco is unstoppable in mid-late game. I disagree.

Some people think Vanheim is overpowered throughout the game. I disagree.

Some people think Jotunheim is too powerful early and mid-game in particular. I disagree.

Ulm is very very strong early in the game.

I could go on and on, but I do not believe Caelum is overpowered...it depends on how good the player is and whether the player plays to the nation's strengths...any nation can be powerful if played correctly.

Regds,
John