Ulm beefed up ...

[Boron]

Nice finetuning .
A happy new year as well

Arralen said:
Version 0.9:
-- "Full Plate of Ulm": prot 17, def -2, enc 4
-- "Full Chain of Ulm": prot 15, def -3, enc 3

Why does the chain mail get a higher malus to def than the full plate ?
Imo you are more immobile , the stronger your armor is .
So with a chainmail you should be more agile then with a full plate imo .

It doesn't matter much though because defense is very low for ulm units anyways . Their main protection is just protection .


Btw do you plan in future to improve the 2 ulm themes as well ? And tien chi ? And maybe a few themes like return of raptors , pan new age ? Would be cool .

If you plan to do this you should keep the approach you did with ulm , mainly strengthening the combat abilities of their units , but not overpowering their mages too much

[Tuidjy]

CUnknown said:
Let's play Clash of the Titans, rich world, normal research, normal magic sites, indies strength 5.

Very fair settings. I have never played at indies 5, but I do not expect it
to be too different from indies 6.

But let me get one thing straight. The fight is without the mod, right? You
did say 'although I disagree that Ulm needs much if any beefing.'

You can play any faction but Caelum, Arcosephale, Atlantis, or Ryleh.

I think that Pythium/Abysia/Marignon/Man/Vanheim/Ermor/C'tis would not have
any trouble either. May I just ask why you single out Arco as a dangerous
adversary?

By the way, I will play pretenders I have fielded before. It would be unfair
to tailor my pretender for Ulm. I intend to play one game each with Pythium,
C'tis, and Abysia - i.e. to attempt winning with mages, undead, and troops.

I am fairly sure I'll win 2 out of 3 games under these conditions, unless you are some sort of god player.

Oh, boy. To quote my girlfriend: "He better do it, or you will be even more
unsufferable than you usually are on the Boards." Well, I put her on a plane
this morning, so I am all yours... how do you want to do this?

[CUnknown]

I hate to tell you this, but you're going to lose, Tuidjy.

Of course I'm going to play without the mods! I'm going to use base Ulm, in all it's early-game ***-kicking glory. I am also going to use a god I have fielded before (really the only one I've ever used with Ulm). I typically play Ulm geared more towards the mid-late game, because I never need any help in the early game. Ulm is just that good early on.

I figure Arcosephale is one of Ulm's biggest threats because of their astral mages (mind burn, paralyze, mind hunt, etc. against low MR units) and their easy access to trampling (chariots, elephants). Having a 26 protection on your wuss units loses it's charm if you're being stomped by an elephant. Also their Heart Compainions are equal if not better than Ulm's heavy infantry, so there's no advantage there either. I think Arcos just has Ulm's number, even in the early game.

Why don't we do this by e-mail? I can host, you can host, whatever is easiest.

[PvK]

My thoughts:

* I don't think Ulm needs even better armor
* I don't think standard Ulm needs a random pick. It changes Ulm's flavor and removes the strongest advantage of IF Ulm over standard Ulm.
* I don't think strat-move-2 heavy infantry for Ulm makes sense, unless maybe you add a lighter infantry type, or give it only to the chainmail/shieldless types.
* I don't think arbalests should be changed to firing every 2 turns. They are good enough as is, and I don't agree a stronger person can reload an arbalest faster - generally the heaviest crossbows required a device which removed the role of strength.

* I would like to know what regular heavy infantry someone considers superior to Ulm's, taking into account gold cost.
* What gets developed in "5 to 10 turns" that supposedly removes Ulm's early-game advantage in troops?

* +1 strength seems thematic with Ulmites' large size and use of heavy equipment.

* I do like the idea of adding MR to Ulm.
* I would like to see Drain scale add +1 MR per level, and maybe +1 morale/level to Ulm. Can't mod those, though.

I would like to see Ghoul Guardians improved by, adding Full Plate of Ulm (and resource cost to match), and perhaps increasing MR and dropping gold cost and/or making the sacred.

Iron Faith I would like to have a Black Templar Commander unit.

PvK

[Tuidjy]

PvK, the real issue is whether Ulm needs boosting or not. I may agree with you
that Ulm does not need even better armour, or that the random elemental makes
Iron Faith more or less pointless. The reason I am pushing for changes is that
I believe that Ulm, as it is, is simply horribly underpowered. This is why I
am playing the three games against CUnknown - if Ulm cannot win one on one,
on a small map where the enemy capital is known, under conditions tailored to
favor Ulm, there is something wrong with the race.

To answer your question - what gets developped in 5-10 turns that removes
Ulm's advantages in troops? My Caelum will have Alteration II at the end of
turn 2, Construstion II when the tenth water gem rolls in, and will go for
Evocation... That's a buffed pretender, clamming and hastened lightning
casters. Now, I agree that Caelum is an exception, but Pythium, C'tis,
and Arco are not far behind.

By the way, the first game - Ulm vs Pythium - in on. Yes, I am fielding a
Ghost King - my standard MP pretender.

And finally, while the heaviest crossbows indeed use winches or levers to
makes reloading easier, these devices do not make strength irrelevant, but
rather amplify it. Thus, a stronger person will have an easier time. I
imagine arbalests simply as crossbows that are a bit bigger and stiffer -
built to a scale suited for the stronger Ulmians.

[PvK]

Tuidjy said:
PvK, the real issue is whether Ulm needs boosting or not. I may agree with you
that Ulm does not need even better armour, or that the random elemental makes
Iron Faith more or less pointless. The reason I am pushing for changes is that
I believe that Ulm, as it is, is simply horribly underpowered. This is why I
am playing the three games against CUnknown - if Ulm cannot win one on one,
on a small map where the enemy capital is known, under conditions tailored to
favor Ulm, there is something wrong with the race.

Ok, but suppose one simply added MR and perhaps a little morale to all Ulm national units - would there not be a point where that alone would make you think Ulm wasn't underpowered?

That is, I might agree Ulm is at a disadvantage once other nations have deployed powerful magic, if Ulm fails to develop other magic itself (such as from independant mages). However I'd first try approaches which try to stay closest to what I see as Ulm's theme, which is anti-magic rather than more magic, and the game data's other thematic parameters.

PvK

[Endoperez]

PvK said:
My thoughts:

* I don't think Ulm needs even better armor
* I don't think standard Ulm needs a random pick. It changes Ulm's flavor and removes the strongest advantage of IF Ulm over standard Ulm.

I am on the same boat with you. Ulm's armors are already one of the best, but don't seem to help much. I don't see water and/or air fitting with Ulm, much less any sorceries. And third pick of water would make them quite different, also... Maybe E2D2 for the Smiths? Also, what do you think about IF's Black Priests, should they get another (non-random) pick?

* I don't think strat-move-2 heavy infantry for Ulm makes sense, unless maybe you add a lighter infantry type, or give it only to the chainmail/shieldless types.

I could see it with their crossbowmen as well. Faster (map-move wise) units would help Ulm much.
That idea about only shieldless units getting the move bonus is interesting. Did you read Arralen's post about differences of Chain and Plate armors? That explains quite nicely why he did most of the changed he did.

* I don't think arbalests should be changed to firing every 2 turns. They are good enough as is, and I don't agree a stronger person can reload an arbalest faster - generally the heaviest crossbows required a device which removed the role of strength.

I don't have idea about arbalets' power, because I play only SP and in there I prefer Sappers for their map move of 2, but I don't see stronger person reloading them more quickly either. Maybe their precision should be increased, I believe crowssbowmen would aim better than most other archers...

* I would like to know what regular heavy infantry someone considers superior to Ulm's, taking into account gold cost.

I am not sure about the cost, but Caelum's Temple Guards were quite awesome in Dominions:PPP when they weren't limited to citadel... They have protection of 24 in Cold 3, low encumberance and good skills, and are sacred to boot! Back then blessing was just straight Str/Att/Mrl bonus, undepended on pretender. I still have to try out high Water/med Earth blessing with Caelum, but it could work...

I think part of the problem is, however, that Heavy Infatry is thought to be quite useless.

* +1 strength seems thematic with Ulmites' large size and use of heavy equipment.
* I do like the idea of adding MR to Ulm.
* I would like to see Drain scale add +1 MR per level, and maybe +1 morale/level to Ulm. Can't mod those, though.

I agree to almost everything here, except the morale bonus for drain. Maybe +1 bonus at Drain-2, but not per scale. That would give all Ulmish units +4 to morale in friendly dominion!

I would like to see Ghoul Guardians improved by adding Full Plate of Ulm (and resource cost to match), and perhaps increasing MR and dropping gold cost and/or making the sacred.

One improvement ordered!
Code:

---

#modname "Improved Ghoul Guardian"

By Endoperez

#description "Simple enough to save into any .dm file and enable."

-- Ghoul Guardian is given the armor of Guardian he was and cost changed: 20->17 gp, 31 -> 35 res.

-- Magic resistance changed to 11, to protect them from banishment. 



#selectmonster 1020

#gcost 17

#rcost 35

#mr 11

#armor "Full Plate of Ulm"

#armor "Full Helmet"

#end

---

I added that to my Ulm Upgrade, also.

Iron Faith I would like to have a Black Templar Commander unit.

Already done. Check my Version of the Ulm Upgrade mod. I added the new mod with Ghoul Guardian improvements to this post. EDIT: it had a bug. Fixed.

[Sandman]

Ulm suggestions:

Better Guardians: For a capital-only unit of a military-focused nation, Guardians are somewhat limited. I suggest reducing their cost to 18 gold and giving them better equipment, not just stuff on the same level as the rest of the Ulmish troops. "Great Halberd of Ulm", maybe? Length 5, attack 1, def 1 and damage 10. And a siege bonus of 2. Obviously, this better weapon would cost more in resources, but that's no big deal for Ulm.

Better Smiths: Everyone in this thread seems to want to beef up the Master Smiths with randoms and stuff. A much more elegant solution, IMO, is to have a capital-only class of Grand Master Smiths with the inevitable 3E2F1?. This is roughly in line with other nations, and, whilst it is contrary to Ulmish flavour, it is much neater than messing with the already perfectly-formed Master Smiths.

It also makes Ulm a fearsome nation.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Just call those Master Smiths and rename the old ones Apprentices

[Cainehill]

Sandman said:
Ulm suggestions:

Better Guardians: For a capital-only unit of a military-focused nation, Guardians are somewhat limited. I suggest reducing their cost to 18 gold and giving them better equipment, not just stuff on the same level as the rest of the Ulmish troops. "Great Halberd of Ulm", maybe? Length 5, attack 1, def 1 and damage 10. And a siege bonus of 2. Obviously, this better weapon would cost more in resources, but that's no big deal for Ulm.

Thinking about Ulm's capitol only units vice other nation's capitol onlys, something like this makes sense: other nations want to export their capitol only troops, which hardly seems worthwhile with Ulm.

Better Smiths: Everyone in this thread seems to want to beef up the Master Smiths with randoms and stuff. A much more elegant solution, IMO, is to have a capital-only class of Grand Master Smiths with the inevitable 3E2F1?. This is roughly in line with other nations, and, whilst it is contrary to Ulmish flavour, it is much neater than messing with the already perfectly-formed Master Smiths.

3E2F1????? That would be better than some nations that are considered average to good in magic. Adding one random elemental would make Ulm's smiths quite worthy in and of itself. What you suggest is a .... forging menace, not to mention a very potent battlefield caster - better than most, given access to blade wind without _any_ bonuses, and also Falling Fires, Magma Bolts, etc, with either conjuration 3, a booster, or a random. Frankly, 3E2F by itself would be more potent on the battlefield than most mages, given the synchonicities between earth and fire, and you think it should have a random as well?

*shudder*

Minus the random, I think that might be okay for a new nation, or an Ulmish theme that drastically diminished the advantages (armor, drain, forging) that Ulm currently has - earth and fire together are very potent.

An example of why I think the random would be way too overpowered: 3E2F1? : a single starshine skullcap, an astral random could crank out crystal coins and starshine skullcaps. Empower once for 30 astral, you can forge rings of sorcery. Then rings of wizardry. Then a blood random can make earth blood stones, and basically all the blood items, etc.

And if it was an elemental only random, then you have the first national mage capable of E4, and also tying with Abysia and Marignon for F3 mages, incredibly easy to use national mages for Earth kings and also kings of elemental fire, almost unlimitted Earth Elemental Attacks, cheap blade winds, magma eruptions, etc. It just keeps getting worse and worse.