ArcoBlood Mod Finished

[The_Tauren13]

BigDaddy said:Aetheism is a fools bet; You bet everything that you get nothing rather than betting everything that you get everything. . .

Ok, lets say god does exist, yet I dont believe it.

Case 1:
Believing there to be no possiblility of gods existence, I live my life just like I actually do, i.e. putting down religion and people who believe in god. So, god strikes me down and I go to hell.
Case 2:
Even though inside myself I believe there is no possiblility of gods existence, I go around like you do preaching to everyone everywhere about how great god is. So I die. Then what does god do? Does he send me to hell even though I spoke his will? Or do I get into heaven, even though I didnt believe in him? If its the former, then Im screwed no matter what I do, and theres no point in not being atheist. If its the latter, thats one messed up god you got there. Why are you preaching the will of a god who lets people lie to buy redemption?

Either way, theres no reason for me not to be atheist. So stop trying to convert me.

[Scott Hebert]

The_Tauren13 said:

Ok, lets say god does exist, yet I dont believe it.

Case 1:
Believing there to be no possiblility of gods existence, I live my life just like I actually do, i.e. putting down religion and people who believe in god. So, god strikes me down and I go to hell.

You have made an admittedly common mistake in dealing with God. God does not send anyone to Hell; people go to Hell themselves. Hell, by definition, is being apart from God. If you live your life believing there is no God, when you die and discover there is a God, you will deny Him then (if you have the strength of your convictions). By doing so, you consign yourself to Hell.

Of course, the question then becomes, "Who would willingly consign themselves to Hell?" The reply is, "Who would willingly deny the possibility of God?"

Case 2:
Even though inside myself I believe there is no possiblility of gods existence, I go around like you do preaching to everyone everywhere about how great god is.

If you don't believe in God, and yet try to do God's will, you sound to be quite confused. If you don't believe in God, do not try to tell people about God. You don't go around to adults preaching about the Tooth Fairy, do you?

So I die. Then what does god do? Does he send me to hell even though I spoke his will? Or do I get into heaven, even though I didnt believe in him? If its the former, then Im screwed no matter what I do, and theres no point in not being atheist.

Well, you presuppose that you do not, cannot, and will not believe in God. With that presupposition, what can you expect to happen if and when you find out that God does exist?

The problem with your stance is not that you're an atheist, but that you won't even consider the alternative, except from the standpoint of an atheist.

Either way, theres no reason for me not to be atheist. So stop trying to convert me.

I do agree with you. As long as you're committed to being an atheist, there's no reason for you not to be an atheist.

I do like this quote by a priest, though.

"If the atheist is right, he will never know."
"If the Christian is wrong, he will never know."

[atul]

Scott Hebert said:
"Who would willingly deny the possibility of God?"

There's this thing I've been wondering. If you really claim that theism is about believing in the possibility of a god and atheism outright denial (which, by the way, is a quite strong argumentative weapon, claiming your position extends over a wide variety of options and opposition only has a niche, no matter what the original positions were) then how does accept the possibility suddenly transform into a conviction of a particular religion's god?

I mean, sure, I can accept there's a possibility that a God portrayed by catholics exists... as well as I can accept that there's a possibility I could suddenly be teleported one meter to my left due quantum uncertainity, the probabilities of both being about equal. Even so, I believe no-one would seriously advice me to live in a constant fear of random Teleportitis...

[Scott Hebert]

I am not claiming that MY beliefs are that broad. I am only pointing out that atheism denies the possibility (even the possibility) of their being a God. Theism, as its opposite, admits the possibility of their being a God. I am prepared to go quite a bit further about that being humans call God.

My position, in a theistic vs. atheistic side, is theistic. As such, and considering that many here are approaching things from the atheistic side, I thought I should get out the most basic difference between the sides.

As put forth, an agnostic is a theist.

And while your latter argument is droll, it is simply another way of putting that you do not believe in God. Believe me, I don't speak here about God for my own edification.

[TheSelfishGene]

Scott Hebert said:

Well, you presuppose that you do not, cannot, and will not believe in God. With that presupposition, what can you expect to happen if and when you find out that God does exist?

The problem with your stance is not that you're an atheist, but that you won't even consider the alternative, except from the standpoint of an atheist.

What happens to the rightous non-believer is an interesting question. Does living a good and holy life suddenly count for nothing if you don't believe in God at the end? Its a question that i've wondered about, and even made into a short parable a long time ago:

>>Two old men give money to an Orphanage (a good thing); both get their names on plaques and receive credit from the community. One does it out of the goodness of his heart, the other for a tax break. One modestly rejects recognition for his deeds out of true humility, the other feigns modesty hoping to cast a favorable light on his character.<<

Both old men's actions had the same result, but different intentions. So, do those intentions matter? To society, individuals or even God? Does the wicked old man receive an equal share in the heavenly reward - since his actions are the same as those of one who was rightous, but his intentions were not. And so, does he "buy" his way into heaven with rightous acts but selfish desires?

Certain Protestant denominations insist that the only thing that matters is whether you believe Jesus was the Savior and Son of God - everything is secondary. I find this intellectually repelling. It says that all our actions and struggles in life are meaningless, and that the wicked and saints all have a "get out of jail free card".

Its the Hitler As Saint problem. If you belive all you need to get into heaven is belief, there is the *chance*, however unlikely, Hitler saw the error of his ways and became a Christian, say, 10 seconds before he died. The idea that Hitler is sitting at the Right Hand of God, a blessed saint, is not a pretty one! And one that a God-given intellect would naturally find repelling and wrong - and thus the interpretation that lead to that conclusion.

[Scott Hebert]

What happens to the rightous non-believer is an interesting question.

Yes. It certainly is.

Does living a good and holy life suddenly count for nothing if you don't believe in God at the end? Its a question that i've wondered about, and even made into a short parable a long time ago:

Lewis gave his own answer to this in The Last Battle, but it sounded a little like a cop-out to me.

I think my own answer would be that, when you finally see God, you will recognize Him as the one who inspired your 'good and holy life', and will choose to stay with Him.

>>Two old men give money to an Orphanage (a good thing); both get their names on plaques and receive credit from the community. One does it out of the goodness of his heart, the other for a tax break. One modestly rejects recognition for his deeds out of true humility, the other feigns modesty hoping to cast a favorable light on his character.<<

I assume that there is no overlap? Absolutely none? That is a rather contrived circumstance, were it so. Even if I give money for altruistic reasons, I can also benefit in the long term, and do it for other reasons. For the record, though, I believe that the second has more to fear than the first.

Both old men's actions had the same result, but different intentions. So, do those intentions matter? To society, individuals or even God?

The results are the same, but the ends are different. Intention does matter; in Catholic theology, it CERTAINLY matters.

God, of course, knows your intentions. Whatever the society or other individuals see, God sees and judges by your heart.

Does the wicked old man receive an equal share in the heavenly reward - since his actions are the same as those of one who was rightous, but his intentions were not. And so, does he "buy" his way into heaven with rightous acts but selfish desires?

Again, there is this idea of 'receiving' Heaven or Hell. How anyone can be selfish and want to be in Heaven, I'm not sure...

Certain Protestant denominations insist that the only thing that matters is whether you believe Jesus was the Savior and Son of God - everything is secondary. I find this intellectually repelling. It says that all our actions and struggles in life are meaningless, and that the wicked and saints all have a "get out of jail free card".

You've just found my biggest concern with Protestants.

Its the Hitler As Saint problem. If you belive all you need to get into heaven is belief, there is the *chance*, however unlikely, Hitler saw the error of his ways and became a Christian, say, 10 seconds before he died. The idea that Hitler is sitting at the Right Hand of God, a blessed saint, is not a pretty one! And one that a God-given intellect would naturally find repelling and wrong - and thus the interpretation that lead to that conclusion.

I'll do you one better (and this was told to me by a Dominican priest). Try Judas Isacariot. He betrayed Jesus, and then committed suicide. Can you be SURE he's not in Heaven? There really is no way to know if he is or not. And if he was forgiven, do you think that God will not forgive us if we ask?

And what will you do, if you find Hitler in Heaven? Will you argue with God over another person's salvation? You know God is good. Literally, goodness incarnate. If He finds Hitler's repentance genuine, can you accept any less? If you cannot, then you are guilty of the sin of Pride, and that Pride will lead you into denouncing God and living apart from Him.

Lucifer's sin.

[johan osterman]

BigDaddy said:
...
God is definetly to be feared, and he well may be impossible to fit in nice tidy rules. Aetheism is a fools bet; You bet everything that you get nothing rather than betting everything that you get everything. . . Primarily do to a lack of will to SEEK the truth.

How do you know which brand of religion will result a positive outcome of the bet. What if God rewards people for not worshipping him, and sends to hell those that do. Unless you introduce what it to most atheist very unsatisfactory reasoning it is not at all clear what form of worship you should bet on. While there are christians that like to claim that christianity is the only self consistent religion this is not at all evident to most outside observers. And as long as you have no sure knowledge of how to act in order to achieve a positive outcome of the bet and have no idea of what the reward in itself to be there is no particular point in making the bet at all. So without an effective, effective as in convincing to nonbelievers, way of showing that any particular worship dominates the others and results in a positive outcome the Pascals wager is pointless.

[The_Tauren13]

It appears even god is atheist

[BigDaddy]

Johan,

It's very interesting that you brought that up. It is the belief of Catholics that those who live a clean life (living the way they know is right) can be "saved by grace." Good people aren't necessarily sent to hell. Particular religions that have beliefs in clean living are Buddhism, most christian religions, and Islam. The real point here is just to be true to yourself, and do what you honestly believe is right. It helps, of course, if you have moral guidance of some type.

[johan osterman]

BigDaddy said:
Johan,

It's very interesting that you brought that up. It is the belief of Catholics that those who live a clean life (living the way they know is right) can be "saved by grace." Good people aren't necessarily sent to hell. Particular religions that have beliefs in clean living are Buddhism, most christian religions, and Islam. The real point here is just to be true to yourself, and do what you honestly believe is right. It helps, of course, if you have moral guidance of some type.

Well, that still leaves the problem that the only way to choose between the set of possible behaviours is to presuppose that one of the betting outcomes is going to obtain. In essence you have a betting situation where you have an infinite set of possible bets and possible states, and you have no information availible by which to discern what state is likely to obtain, besides from information you gain by presupposing that one particular state will obtain, which is question begging. Not only that, you also have no information what the reward will be for each bet dependent on the state that obtains is, besides, once again, any info you come by by presupposing the state you are betting on.