Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them All

[daesthai]

Reverend Zombie said:

The Norse had Elves, too (and I recall reading that the Norse idea of Elf inspired Tolkien.)

I was under the impression that Tolkien's elves came from a Finnish background and his love of The Kalevala. You can certainly see it's influence on The Silmarillion, which in turn set the foundation for his classic trilogy. Though I'm sure he drew from many places and wouldn't be a bit suprised if Norse myths entered into it, too. If you get a chance to read his letters (as well as The Kalevala and Silmarillion), they are truly facinating. Admitedly "dry" reads, but very rich stories.

As for the debate regarding the inclusion of "Tolkien-esque" races, I say why not? If they are presented as one of the nation options and not the central theme of the game, I would think they simply become one more choice available and present the chance to appeal to an even wider audience.

I agree that it would be a travesty to turn Dom3 into a purely Tolkien setting, but why not have a single army that appeals to those that enjoy such characters and could then become more familiar with some of the other mythos involved.

[Reverend Zombie]

daesthai said:

I was under the impression that Tolkien's elves came from a Finnish background and his love of The Kalevala.

From what I know, the Kalevala (& Tolkien's learning Finnish in order to read it) was certainly the inspiration for the language of the elves, and the stories in it served as inspiration for Tolkien's stories (just as Beowulf and various other sources did).

But I do not know if there are actually elves in the Kalevala. Their absence from it would preclude it as source of inspiration for the idea of elves as such.

[Endoperez]

I don't think Tolkien took Elves from Finnish mythology. I'm not very knowledgeable about the subject myself (), but I think Finnish myths mainly tell of shapeshifting trolls that and tiny gnomes/elves as local spirits that will reward good deeds (and food left for them) with good luck.

However, there is one story in Silmarillion that is clearly inspired by Kalevala. The story of Turin has similarities with the story of Kullervo, the hapless. Song of Hiawatha, by American poet Longfellow, is written in English but using the style and rhythmh of Kalevala. It might represent the style better than the translated Kalevala.

EDIT: I'd rather have Middle-Earth total conversion instead of few out-of-place nations. And I think a tutorial would help much more than familiar-seeming nations.

[SafeKeeper]

Dom2 lacks orcs, elves, and hobbits? Hmm, last I checked the Tuatha sure resembled elves

Not JRR Tolkien elves. Hah!

(...) the Hoburgsmen are just another name for hobbits (Tolkien) / halflings (D&D) / hurthlings (ADOM)...

Here I definetly beg to differ. Halflings and hobbits are two widely different things. I think. Never read JRR's books, just watched the movies.

(...) the only thing really lacking is orcs.

Good riddance, I say. Although the Jotun giant brutes can act pretty Orc-ish at times.

I still think that Clockwork Horrors should produce mecha-Horrors, though, not mecha-Hoburgsmen

Hoburgsman v4.75
Intel Inside

[Reverend Zombie]

SafeKeeper said:
Our Swedish comrades in Illwinter Productions has made two games that are almost completely free of the ”Orc versus human” cliché that Lord of the Rings *SNIP* makes use of.
[/b]–Øyvind[/b]
, Norway [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Campfire.gif[/img]

It wasn't a cliché when Tolkien came up with it, was it? His original story in Lord of the Rings was just as original, if not more so, than the mythos of Dominions.