Some Observations...(all are welcomed)

[Wade]

-----It is generally accepted that we have a higher level of intelligence and consciousness than the life forms that we eat; yes, including plants. Thus, it would stand to reason that some where in the universe there are life forms with a higher level of intelligence and consciousness than us that might want to eat us.
Unless...they have evolved or developed a biological or technological means of consuming energy directly.
I believe that this will be the future of ours and of others.

-Wade

[narf poit chez BOOM]

The general arguement for eating animals is their lack of sapience - Ie., lack of awareness of themselves and others as entities.

[Wade]

I used consciousness as a general term. Sapience also comes in varying levels. We humans eat a huge variety of life forms. I argue that many, if not most, of them have a level of sapience; awareness of themselves and others as entities.
*I eat meat also*. I'm just saying that what's out there in space could be quite bad for us. That's why we should strive to develop research, space travel, colonization, and defenses.

Regarding "sapience":awareness of themselves and others as entities: *putting aside all the cultural differences between people and nations*.
Do these life forms, for example, have *any level* of awareness of themselves and others as entities?

Dog, Cat, Cow, Pig, sheep, rat, fish, octopus, squid, horse, monkey, ape(chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutang,etc.), tuna(yes, I know I already put fish), dolphin, whale, crab, snake, lizard, chicken (and other birds, how about parrots?), deer, elephant, turtle...(I guess those are good enough.)

Words like sapience and consciousness are all creations of language. What it all generallizes to is "intelligence level". There will be many life forms with a higher intelligence level than ours. Hopefully they will have advanced to direct energy consumption.

-Wade

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Emotions are certainly possible without sapience.

[Slynky]

Wade said:-----I go to sleep thinking about Space Empires and wake up thinking about Space Empires. I have maintenance around the home that I have been putting off.

You may just be in the light stages right now. In my PBW 2005 Championship (final) game, I would make mental notes of things I needed to check on next time I had the computer on. And at work, I would think of something and email myself a reminder for the turn that night. And explain how things were going to my wife (who couldn't care less).

*shrug* So, it gets worse!

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

One company does something cruelly so now the whole industry is "inhumane?" Flimsy propaganda is all they have going.

Not just one single company, there's an entire branch of them out here. Of course, there are also the more humane companies, but there are still companies which treat their animals cruelly.

Speaking as a cattle rancher, someone with knowledge about these things. Cattle most certainly are NOT stuffed in crates shortly after birth, to live there for life.

You might be so humane, but like I said there are companies here which aren't. We don't have the wide open spaces of North America, hence the "bio-industry" which started to emerge after WWII; that way, you could have the largest amount of animals in the smallest amount of space.

Animal rights activists are (in a lot of cases) manipulative in the extreme. For example, it was proven that here in Canada, where they petition for the outlawing of the seal hunt, it was shown that they organized the skinning of a live seal. They then filmed this, and used it as their ammunition to try and outlaw it. I don't know about you, but this sickens me a hell of a lot more than how animals are slaughtered. Sickens me.

This, to me, is on the same level of evil as Nazism.

I understand your reactions, and I won't attempt to convince you to stop eating meat (such efforts are limited to semi-serious discussions with my friends during lunch), or convince you that all of what I heard is true, but some of it is, and personally I see no reason to eat meat. I've been brought up a vegetarian, and I'll die a vegetarian.

(Note: I have not responded to some statements. Please take this as my agreement on this; I have only responded to those statements I did not agree with. I have read your posts and seriously considered them.)

[Renegade 13]

Strategia_In_Ultima said:
You might be so humane, but like I said there are companies here which aren't. We don't have the wide open spaces of North America, hence the "bio-industry" which started to emerge after WWII; that way, you could have the largest amount of animals in the smallest amount of space.

I agree, in part at least. I guess my point was that things like that do not happen here in North America, to the best of my knowledge. I don't know what happens in Europe nearly as much. Though I must say I still have my doubts, since governmental regulations are generally very strict when it comes to the treatment of animals. Also I'd ask you; have you seen such plants with you're own eyes, or are you relying on the 'evidence' provided by others? There's an old saying I like; "Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear."

This, to me, is on the same level of evil as Nazism.

I understand your reactions, and I won't attempt to convince you to stop eating meat (such efforts are limited to semi-serious discussions with my friends during lunch), or convince you that all of what I heard is true, but some of it is, and personally I see no reason to eat meat. I've been brought up a vegetarian, and I'll die a vegetarian.

It may not seem like it, but I do respect your convictions. I may not agree with them, but it is every human's right to choose what they will and will not do, and I have no right to aggressively argue my point of view over and over So I won't!

(Note: I have not responded to some statements. Please take this as my agreement on this; I have only responded to those statements I did not agree with. I have read your posts and seriously considered them.)

I too have read and considered your posts, and agree with some, not with others (obviously!).

Arguements should be something like this, statements of beliefs, not shouting/pissing matches. I'm happy everyone here is remaining civil about this, even when it wasn't in any way related to the original topic! Though if anyone did come close to being uncivil, it was probably me!

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Renegade 13 said:

I agree, in part at least. I guess my point was that things like that do not happen here in North America, to the best of my knowledge. I don't know what happens in Europe nearly as much. Though I must say I still have my doubts, since governmental regulations are generally very strict when it comes to the treatment of animals. Also I'd ask you; have you seen such plants with you're own eyes, or are you relying on the 'evidence' provided by others? There's an old saying I like; "Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear."

Though I have not seen these processes with my own eyes, I am 100% certain that they occur. Once or twice every year you see them on the news or somewhere else on TV, and staging all that is just ridiculous. Like I said, here in the Netherlands we had to find a way to maximize production with a minimum of land right after WWII.

This, to me, is on the same level of evil as Nazism.

I understand your reactions, and I won't attempt to convince you to stop eating meat (such efforts are limited to semi-serious discussions with my friends during lunch), or convince you that all of what I heard is true, but some of it is, and personally I see no reason to eat meat. I've been brought up a vegetarian, and I'll die a vegetarian.

It may not seem like it, but I do respect your convictions. I may not agree with them, but it is every human's right to choose what they will and will not do, and I have no right to aggressively argue my point of view over and over So I won't!

[/quote]

I never suspected you of not respecting my convictions, and I hope you do not suspect me of not respecting yours.

(Note: I have not responded to some statements. Please take this as my agreement on this; I have only responded to those statements I did not agree with. I have read your posts and seriously considered them.)

I too have read and considered your posts, and agree with some, not with others (obviously!).

Arguements should be something like this, statements of beliefs, not shouting/pissing matches. I'm happy everyone here is remaining civil about this, even when it wasn't in any way related to the original topic! Though if anyone did come close to being uncivil, it was probably me!

[/quote]

Eh, don't worry, it's nothing

Oh the humanity of it all!

Billions of individual living entities are raised in crowed conditions feed special chemicals to maximize there growth then they are slaughter so that their gestating young can be ripped from the parents carcass just to be used to feed the masses of humans and other animals!!! Many of these living entities are actually eaten while still alive!


SAVE THE PLANTS!
They have a right to live without the cruel treatment of modern farming!

Believe it or not, I actually get a lot of this when I "attempt" to convert my friends to vegetarianism

[Renegade 13]

Strategia_In_Ultima said:
I never suspected you of not respecting my convictions, and I hope you do not suspect me of not respecting yours.

Nope, never thought you didn't respect my opinions Just thought you might suspect me of it

Wow, I really can confuse things quickly, eh??

[Fyron]

Please reduce the amount of quoted text and nested quotes... It gets really hard to follow (esp. on lower res) with so much extra space wasted between the actual content of the post. Just the words you are responding to will suffice (though they are not usually necessary).