Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Valandil]

Hmmm. Stupid test I realize, but interesting nontheless.

25 W9 F9 Helhirdings, 3 Hangadrotts (!).

25 E9 N9 Living Pillars. Warriors of Muspelheim (!!!). The uber-king-of-basalt-doom that cast the warriors then ordered to retreat.
3 basalt kings with boots of behemoth, no buffs.


The vanir routed, taking 8 losses.
4 pillars died.
so did all three kings.

Note: even this crazy test ends up in helheim's favour.

[Edi]

NTJedi said:
Yeah lets stomp and pound the newbie player by turn_12 in the blitz game... oh gosh... he never returned... wonder WHY !!

Anyone entering Dom3 MP games expecting anything else at the beginning is obviously too naive for his own good. Doesn't mean that a more experienced player necessarily needs to go full throttle at them, but if it happens, it happens. If you're trying to twist my words around as if I advocated piling on newbies, you can go play with yourself.

NTJedi said:
Based on the type of games available, the type of players in the game and the time available for the newbie player... gamers must choose what works for them.
And even if they do move into a game for newbies, there's no stopping an experienced player from logging in unrecognized and dominating.

Then that would suggest the problem being with the experienced player being something of an arsehole rather than there bring a problem with the concept of a newbie game, wouldn't it?

NTJedi said:

Not everyone has your personality, thus many gamers new to multiplayer gaming will only stomach getting stomped a few times before just flat out quitting. The powerful nations provide the newbie a stronger sense of security when moving into the multiplayer arena.

The harsh fact is that for most people, winning a Dominions game is a fairly rare treat unless they take part in a crapload of games. Powerful nation or not, a newbie is going to get a drubbing when he moves into a game with experienced people. The only question is how bad, and that depends on quite a few things. But that does not address the issue of an obvious balance problem in any way, shape or form.

NTJedi said:
There's LOTS of nations for every age and more coming... there's no reason for the game not to have a few very powerful nations which provide more variety into the game. If you want something completely balanced all the way around go play rock, paper, scissors.

Take your sanctimonious attitude and shove it up your arse. I've never demanded complete balance for any Dominions game and I don't appreciate you trying to put words into my mouth. There is a difference between "powerful" and "ridiculously lopsided", which is what Huzurdadi, Graeme and I have been saying here.

NTJedi said:
If the developers wanted something completely balanced they would not have Vanheim and Helium designed the way they do now. You don't like it... then go develop a mod.

What I said about your attitude still applies here. Only you should do it with a cattle prod. In case you didn't happen to read the latest interview posted, the developers add new nations based on gut feeling and what feels thematically correct without worrying about balance. Occasionally that results in something that needs to be toned down and the Vanheim and Helheim issue is one of those.

As far as developing a mod or providing other content for the community goes, I've done a ****load more than you've ever dreamed of doing and I've no problem claiming that I've got a better understanding of Dominions as a whole than you do.

Now if you would care to actually address the points raised instead of whining like whipped dog, be my guest, but otherwise you can sod off.

Edi

[NTJedi]

Edi said:

If you're trying to twist my words around as if I advocated piling on newbies, you can go play with yourself.

Such immature behavior, as hard as it may be for you keep your conversation civilized please do your best.

NTJedi said:
Then that would suggest the problem being with the experienced player being something of an arsehole rather than there bring a problem with the concept of a newbie game, wouldn't it?

The point being that if a few stronger nations exist within the game then the newbie players have more of a sense of security and confidence for starting a multiplayer game. "It's much harder learning how to ride a bike by starting up a steep hill."
Also SP gamers need very powerful nations whether they are new to the game or experts looking for a powerful enemy.

Edi said:
The harsh fact is that for most people, winning a Dominions game is a fairly rare treat unless they take part in a crapload of games. Powerful nation or not, a newbie is going to get a drubbing when he moves into a game with experienced people. The only question is how bad, and that depends on quite a few things. But that does not address the issue of an obvious balance problem in any way, shape or form.

As mentioned earlier the stronger nations provide the newbie gamers more confidence when playing a multiplayer game. And there's no balance problem since there's LOTS of nations for every era. Also your desire to weaken the stronger nations is from a multiplayer only view. In singleplayer games many new gamers enjoy playing the stronger nations and as they become more experienced they enjoy playing against the stronger nations. The game is very successful in its current format and I doubt we'll being seeing a change for the few wanting the "weaken the stronger nations" view.

Edi said:
There is a difference between "powerful" and "ridiculously lopsided", which is what Huzurdadi, Graeme and I have been saying here.

There's LOTS of nations... either don't play the few strong nations or develop a mod. The game in its current format is what has made it successful for BOTH multiplayer and singleplayer games.

Edi said:What I said about your attitude still applies here. Only you should do it with a cattle prod. In case you didn't happen to read the latest interview posted, the developers add new nations based on gut feeling and what feels thematically correct without worrying about balance. Occasionally that results in something that needs to be toned down and the Vanheim and Helheim issue is one of those.

Perhaps if you return to a good school you'll be more civilized on the forums. The rude behavior in your posts will eventually cause you to receive warnings from the moderators.
And the fact that a few nations are very powerful out of fifty nations is not an issue. You can easily choose to not play those nations or mod those nations since the average multiplayer game is 10 nations.

Edi said:
As far as developing a mod or providing other content for the community goes, I've done a ****load more than you've ever dreamed of doing and I've no problem claiming that I've got a better understanding of Dominions as a whole than you do.

Great then go create the mods for Vanheim and Helheim. There's no reason the entire community should accept the fate of no more very powerful nations just to satisfy your multiplayer gaming needs.

[Wyatt Hebert]

Hello, all...

As a longtime forum lurker, I've watched a lot of debates. I'd like to point out one thing, and ask someone to run a test...

(As an aside, I've played a piece of one MP game, which is why I'm asking for someone to test this idea)

Vans are susceptible to AoE attacks. Everyone acknowledges this. The earliest and most easily spammable AoE I know of is the Magma Children for EA Agartha. It's Conjuration 2 or 3, and has the Flame Strike attack. Can anyone do a realistic test of a turn 10-12 attack on Agartha by Helheim?

I only ask because my EA Agartha game, I was up against Helheim and Ulm (SP, of course), and I had much worse problems against Ulm, typically. Magma Children and the Earth Elementals did a real number on the Glamoured units, and Troglodytes are useful against the unmounted ones...

Of course, you also have easy access to Blade Wind and the Magma spells, but those are a bit too far away to take seriously in a rush, right?

Anyways, just a point...

[Endoperez]

AoE attacks, and trample, are both good suggestions. Abysia can recruit Salamanders, whose attack has AoE 1 IIRC. They should also work well, at least for one turn before they are butchered.

Fire Shield is also very good. Again, EA Agartha has Magma Children and EA Abysia the Burning Ones.

[Gandalf Parker]

Hmmm I didnt think of heat or cold auras as being an area attack. Thats really a good point for the fast games.

[HoneyBadger]

This thread moves to fast

To address the question of a human outwalking a horse or a dog: The Zulu in their heyday could RUN 50 miles, fight a full scale battle, and then RUN back. That's not just one Zulu, that was a whole Zulu division. At the battle of Marathon, a Greek soldier ran something like 26 miles in full armor (he delivered the message of victory and then promptly dropped dead, but still). 20 miles is no problem for a typical healthy human being. The problem isn't the distance, it's motivation. I myself am fat, I've got flat feet, and painful arthritis, and I can walk 12 miles at a stretch. Mind you, there are painful consequences, and it takes me about 3 days to recover, but I have done such a thing before and could again if I found it necessary. Humans get a bad rep compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, but we can wear anything out, eventually, and we can survive in more extreme conditions than just about anything, too, atleast among the "higher" forms of life. We're also able to eat more different types of food than most, and store that food as fat (not a bad survival trick), we have, as far as I know, the finest sense of taste (not smell, mind you) in the whole animal kingdom, and we can deal with both land and-to a limited degree-water environments.

We're not firmly on top of the food-chain by mistake, friends and relatives, and it wasn't just our brains and opposable thumbs that put us here.

[Sheap]

Of course athletes can run 26 miles, they do it all the time, but I don't think the "original" marathon was done in full armor. I'd certainly leave MY armor behind.

I'm squarely in the middle of the food chain

[PDF]

Yes but noone outruns a W9 blessed Van

Back to topic !!

[Corwin]

PDF said:
Yes but noone outruns a W9 blessed Van

Back to topic !!

That was subtle.