Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[HoneyBadger]

I've never had a problem stopping them. Not only was I able to take out their armies, I was able to hold on to land, and eventually surround and crush them, without a hitch and in a very mannerly fashion. The secret was using mixed armies of something like 10 to 1 odds against them, having a good bless of my own,, building plenty of castles with loads of PD, and being every bit as aggro as they are.

[vfb]

HoneyBadger said:
I've never had a problem stopping them. Not only was I able to take out their armies, I was able to hold on to land, and eventually surround and crush them, without a hitch and in a very mannerly fashion. The secret was using mixed armies of something like 10 to 1 odds against them, having a good bless of my own,, building plenty of castles with loads of PD, and being every bit as aggro as they are.

HB, it might help put an end to some of the argument here if you could be clear that you're talking about SP in your posts. Like:

"I've never had a problem stopping the Vanheim AI. Not only was I able to take out their armies in SP, I was able to hold on to land in SP, and eventually surround and crush the AI player, without a hitch (in SP) in a very mannerly fashion (against the AI)."

I don't want to ban Helheim/Vanheim from games, but I do know I'll be trying out the CB mod in the next MP game I host.

[Meglobob]

HoneyBadger said:
Yes, ofcourse SP. So, I'm only interested because Helheim and Vanheim are unbalanced for SP.

Helheim/Vanheim are not unbalanced in SP because the AI plays them, so anyone can beat them very easily with any nation after 1 or 2 months playing experience. In SP you want to give the AI as much advantage as possible to give you a challenge.

Helheim/Vanheim are unbalanced purely in MP play when a good player will use there strengths to the max.

[Sombre]

Yeah when you're talking about SP you can still talk about balance (you can deduce the relative strengths of a lot of units etc) but you can't use the fact that you can beat the AI as an example that a nation isn't overpowered. Because of course you can beat any AI nation with any other nation. You can beat them even if they're improved 500%. You can beat them even if you stale the first 5 turns. If you want to assess whether Vans are overpowered you could try playing with them and see if it's actually worth using any other kind of strategy with Helheim / Vanheim.

[HoneyBadger]

Which ofcourse is exactly what I WASN'T saying.

I am saying that they're overpowered. In SP. I don't have an opinion about MP since I don't play a lot of MP.

I wasn't saying that, "just because you can beat the AI in SP that they're not overpowered". Infact, I'm not sure how you got that. I did say you can beat them in an SP game with Tien Chi, but that's entirely in another direction from the point. What I'm saying is that, if you compare them to other nations, they're clearly more powerful. Human intelligence (or a clear lack thereof) is entirely aside from that.

I wonder if anyone actually reads my posts before replying to them, or takes them in any kind of context?

[Velusion]

HoneyBadger said:
I wonder if anyone actually reads my posts before replying to them, or takes them in any kind of context?

I read up to this point...

HoneyBadger said:
Who cares about MP?

... before I stopped caring what you were saying.

But hey, I'm sure I took that out of context....

[HoneyBadger]

I can't fathom why you're trying to be rude, Velusion, but I haven't noticed you posting anything I cared about either, ever, so I guess we're even?

And, since you don't seem to know what the word "context" means or how to use it, and since the last two times you've posted in this thread, you haven't made any particular sense, contextual or otherwise, then perhaps you ought to look into it?

[Tuidjy]

Guys... Once upon the time, in the days of Dominions II, I got into a heated
discussion with someone on the subject whether mainstream Ulm was weak. After
pointless arguments, we decided to duke it out on a map that would play to
Ulm's strengths, as he perceived them. After getting demolished in the one
setup that he was sure to win (against Pythium) he stopped objecting.

Why not do it again... those few who claim that Hellheim is not imbalanced will
be assigned nations and show the rest of us how one defeats a fire/water bless.

Despite being a Dominions III newbie, and having never played any -heims since
pretender changes allowed insane blesses, I am willing to take the -heim side.

[Velusion]

Tuidjy said:
Guys... Once upon the time, in the days of Dominions II, I got into a heated
discussion with someone on the subject whether mainstream Ulm was weak. After
pointless arguments, we decided to duke it out on a map that would play to
Ulm's strengths, as he perceived them. After getting demolished in the one
setup that he was sure to win (against Pythium) he stopped objecting.

Why not do it again... those few who claim that Hellheim is not imbalanced will
be assigned nations and show the rest of us how one defeats a fire/water bless.

Despite being a Dominions III newbie, and having never played any -heims since
pretender changes allowed insane blesses, I am willing to take the -heim side.

Good luck in finding an opponent. Most of the people that defend the heims "as is" don't play MP.

But I agree with Calmon - I'll wait to see the changes mentioned by the devs. I'm a bit skeptical, but I'll wait and see.

Edit: Actually if this test is ever done I'd prefer someone more experienced to play the heim nations. Everyone says that the dual-bless heim strategy is simple, but I'm not sure I completely buy that. A really good player intimately familiar with exploiting the heim double-bless avenue would be a better indicator of true uber-potential. Note that this rules me out .