Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong?

[General_Jah]

I'm in my 2nd game and playing Caelum becaues the scenario said they were very hard... and boy was it right.

My first game I randomed Hellheim and felt it was a bit to easy once I got my army rolling....

Now I'm having to fight a war with Hellheim as Caelum and Vanheim to boot!

Is it just me or are their armies just WAY to strong... not only do they all have mirrior images but their defense is through the roof. When I played them I could very easily amass their calvary and waste anything even when out numbered.

They just seem really imbalanced here... What am I missing? I realize Caelum may just be a hard nation to play but the other computer controlled nations seem to just be getting rolled by them *** well.

What do you guys think?

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[Covenant]

Another problem with MP is that people can ally against you. Since everyone knows the Vanir factions are incredibly powerful unless you use specialized tactics, people are more likely to ally up to defend against an aggressive 'heim expansionist.

If they can be contained long enough to get you a resource base to recruit mages from and enough AoE spells to make it possible to combat them unglamoured then they become much more fair. Like early-age Elephant Rushes against people like Ulm, sometimes the foe you're facing is just incredibly difficult for you to battle. The 'heims fit there.

They should definatly have the balance tweaked a little, since diplomacy should not substitute actual game balance, but what's more of a pressing concern is bringing weaker forces up to the same level as most people than bringing the few super sides down a notch.

As Caelum, you should have access to good mages and good arrows. A successful arrow hit will dispel a glamour. Also, use your Mammoths. Trampling works very well against Glamour in my experience, though I don't know if they take damage on the trample, they do seem to lose guys just as easily that way. At the very least they start losing their glamour shields, and other guys can come in to help out.

Am I right about that? I'm just remembering my hordes of Trogs swarming over the 'heims as being pretty effective.

[Reay]

Successful arrow hits dispel glamour? I thought they had to damage the unit to dispel glamour? Even if the arrow hits it might hit the shield or the units protection might be high, especially if they are earth blessed.

Tramples with Mammoths can get rid of glamour but you are only likely to cause 1 damage since their defense is so high.

So other than area affect spells what can work against Helherdlings?

[Velusion]

Reay said:
So other than area affect spells what can work against Helherdlings?

Running away?

[Velusion]

FrankTrollman said:
But Helheim doesn't seem to have an amazingly good record in multiplayer so I doubt that they are too strong.
-Frank

I do have to point out this line of reasoning isn't going to work if everyone simply gangs up on them like I've seen in many games.

I think the biggest gripe is that they are pretty invincible in the early stages of the game. There is very little you can do about an uberblessed hel/vanheim nation that rushes you out of the gate, which is frustrating.

Once the bigger AoE spells start to get researched things start to even out it would appear.

[Saxon]

Frank is right, a lot of people have raised the concern that these nations are too strong. Have a search for the topic about a month back, as it has some really good ideas on how to fight them and win. There was no consensus on the forum (not that there ever is!) but rest assured that a lot of people share your concern.

As stated, in single player, these two nations tend to hammer the other AI nations. This makes them bigger, richer and stronger, so you tend to see their power more in single player. I often turn them off in the game set up phase, as I got tired of facing them at the end of every single player game, but that is just me.

Many “fixes” were proposed and attacked, but the idea of increasing their cost a little bit did seem to get a fair bit of support.

[General_Jah]

Velusion said:

Running away?

lol seriously!

Any tips for me as Caelum in countering Hellheim other than mass elephants? I tried massing thunderstorm through my lvl 4 air casters but frankly they dont seem to be enough to stop a 200-300 unit computer army. I just lost 2 decisive battles and a good chunk of my territory so I believe this game is over for me but I would like to know what to do in the future.

On a somewhat side note, so far in my two game experiences magic has not played a big role... Spells seem to take a lot of work to get to and dont really make the trouble worhtwhile from a damage standpoint....

I mean I had roughly 5 lvl 4 air casters using thunderstorm vs hellheim and though it defintely damaged them, I was not able to win the battle. They outnumbered me 2:1 from a troop standpoint. Had I used the 2000 resources for 16 elephants it might have been a different story...

Perhaps casters are only good late game and I just rushed to them real early.. i dont know... my strategy was to crank out non stop my eagle kings so i could cruise around nuking armies but it didn't work out when I started running into these huge 200-300 unit armies, especially when they were controlled by Hellheim and Vanheim

please some tips vs these nations! btw this ie EA

[DrPraetorious]

200-300 units? That's a lot of vanir.

Air spells are not great for damage output. Thunderstrike is nice, but yeah, it isn't going to be decisive. If you want decisive impact from zaps, you want fire or water.

If you want good use out of your air magic - go into alteration. Wind Guide makes a *huge* difference in the effectiveness of your archers - they hit roughly twice as often, in my experience. Of course, you only need that once per army.

Phantasmal Army is also a great spell. If you can get ten guys to cast that (which you should, if you're facing up against 200-300 helhirdlings), that's a whopping 250 guys. They're not great units individually, but they can pin the helhirdlings down (especially with no fire bless) while your real units pepper them with wind-guided arrows.

Other than that, the evocation that really shines against glamour armies is freezing mist. You don't care much about the damage that it deals, but it pops their glamour. You may need to put water-boosting items on your guys before they can cast it, though.

Magic has to be used situationally - if you're not familiar with the magic list, it can seem pretty useless. Unlike in dom2, you don't just grab a bunch of guys and tell them to hurl lightning bolt - you can still do that, but in dom3 it generally isn't cost effective (but it depends on who you are fighting.)

If you can get science fiction levels of magic, note that many of your units are lightning immune. If you switch to an entire army of Storm Guard, and give a few of your eagle kings a stack of air gems each, they can shoot shimmering fields, which is a spell that really will kill an entire army of Vanir all by itself.

[Beorne]

FrankTrollman said:
It's not just you, lots of people have problems with Helheim. But Helheim doesn't seem to have an amazingly good record in multiplayer so I doubt that they are too strong.

Yes, I agree. In our group games Helheim and Van have a very low victory scores. Maybe it's cause they are forbidden because they are too strong?

Yes, van and Helheim are way unbalanced, lot of people is awaiting a serious nerf.