Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)

[vfb]

Hexedit: That's obviously cheating, and IMO is the only one on the list that should result in a ban. But a ban is probably unnecessary because the offending player will very likely disappear in a puff of humiliation.

MoD+BE: Abusive exploit. Probably good to mention that it's banned prior to any game that does not allow exploits.

BE+retreat: IMO this is an exploit, but obviously there are a bunch of people that don't agree with me. Probably good to mention rules for this one too at the game start, if you don't want to allow it in the game.

Demon twiceborn, stealing Bogus scripts, broken movement orders, etc: Same deal.

Communions, slaves casting: Did not know this was a bug! I always assumed reverse communions were intentional. KO says it's OK though .

Filling a lab with slave collars: Get a life!

VoD: I consider the doubling-up of slain undead buggy. And it makes me start thinking about game mechanics instead of the game itself, so ruins my suspension of disbelief. I'll cast it, but if I succeed against a target, I won't cast it again on the same target if he doesn't die the 1st time.

Sickle: kind of unbalanced, but not illogical that it works the way it does. Make it cursed (cannot drop) and horror mark the bearer, please.

[Sombre]

I personally think all the things in the poll are cheesy and see them all as abuse. I wouldn't much enjoy playing with someone who loved to pull stuff like that.

[Foodstamp]

As was stated above. Anything you do within the confines of the game is not an exploit. I am even starting to soften my view on the slave collar thing.

The only thing I voted yes for was hacking the files.

As your crusade continues, be careful not to ruin our game by shouting at the developers until everything is fixed to be very uniform and straight forward. One of the appeals of this game is the wacky stuff you can do. The quirks and weirdness is what gives this game character. And if you do succeed here, stay away from the Dwarf Fortress forums please.

[Gregstrom]

That bit about communions has got me. Up until learning that I had the general opinion that using features not intended to be there to your advantage was in some indefinable sense wrong. But I love being able to use a reverse communion. They make sense to me as an option with the communion spells.

Perhaps there's a difference in that they don't provide a risk-reducing advantage over the way they were intended to work.

VoD gets better every time it gets through a SC's defences without costing the caster any more gems, and it doesn't risk the caster to use it. Repeat casting isn't abusive per se, but the pair of bugs that this spell invokes generate a benefit way beyond the cost.

Cast and flee on BF enchantments gets you a top-notch effect, and the caster (who may well be empowered, loaded with boosters or holding artefacts) gets a minimal risk exposure. The risk/benefit ratio feels wrong.

Sending 40 slave collars costs perhaps a turn's worth of slaves in the late game, and a bit of investment in (frequently cheap) B1 forgers who can hunt when they're not forging. And you can keep on sending 10 collars a turn forever, just to keep the opponent topped up. Benefits are pretty big, if you ask me. The cost isn't huge as a late game trick. And there's no added risk to the producers of the items.

Twiceborn provides a greater than intended benefit, but in limited circumstances and the benefit is of limited utility. It's quite possibly a bigger benefit to use Twiceborn to avoid old age on an exceptional recruited mage or a Crone. I guess I'd probably call it abusive, though.

Communion working the way it currently does, though... Slaves casting at the same time as Masters clearly adds to the risk of fatigue death. Reverse Communion alters the benefit, and I'm not sure how much it increases it.

[Velusion]

This really shouldn't be a big deal.

If you are concerned about these exploits/features only play in games that have rules against them (like I do). I would say more than half of the hosted games implement a ban on the most notorious of these exploits.

The twiceborn, Sickle and VotD exploits/features are probably here to stay as most of the hosts don't consider them exploits. They might be slightly unbalanced but they should hardly have a huge impact on the game.

[Edratman]

Can someone explain "Filling lab with slave collars"? I'm a SP player and I can't even fathom the mechanics or how it would hurt an opponent.

[lch]

Edratman said:
Can someone explain "Filling lab with slave collars"? I'm a SP player and I can't even fathom the mechanics or how it would hurt an opponent.

Messages are sent before item forging occurs, which includes transfer of gems and magic items between nations. If somebody fills another's magic lab with slave collars (or any other item), then any items that he might have forged that turn get lost. And maybe it wasn't possible to throw away items directly from the magic lab in the past, so you had to put it on some commander to get rid of them - which would be a pain if it were slave collars (gives feeblemind and is cursed, i.e. you need a new commander every time).

[Kuritza]

For the communion thing, making slaves passive will render many nice mages like Astrapelagists or LA Marignon's seafaring mages (whatever) semi-useless, and others like Celestial masters quite average. Also, the nice synergy betweeen communion and sabbath is gonna suffer.
So if this communion thingie is gonna be fixed, make it so that 'slaves dont cast if at least one master has cast anything the same turn', not 'slaves dont cast spells at all'. Thus communions will become more balanced, but still usable. Otherwise they will exist perhaps for casting heavy BF enchantments only.

Regarding VotD - this spell goes against the logic and normal game mechanics. This exception should be fixed if only because there's no protection against it (as against the Mind hunt) and its selective. MR *will* fail you sooner or later, most likely sooner.

Immortal demons - gosh, its not OK and it wont ever be. These who advocate it are either clueless or abusers themselves. Dakini, for example, are damn dangerous even naked; make them immortal and Lanka becomes undefeatable period.