OT-Black Company

[Aezeal]

still... Jordan was doing a great job , so is martin btw... and Erikson.

Erikson has a nice gritty realism series.

PS locke lamora > grey mouser and I said con-man not criminal

[Renojustin]

Aezeal said:
still... Jordan was doing a great job

Apparently you have the attention span of a god if you got past the fourth or fifth book in the monstrosity that it became.

[JimMorrison]

So, you are relating the writed of Nightwatch to..... Harry Potter? Ouch man, just ouch.

There were some interesting things portrayed in those films. Not immensely thought provoking for someone who likes to spend much time deep in thought, but still not mindless, either. Though I do have to say, I mostly just found it very weird. But again, most of that comes from translation. I can only imagine that typically the people hired to subtitle movies, are a level of skill lower than those people who translate entire novels, who are generally a level of skill lower than they need to be in order to accurately portray the beauty of the original writing.

It's a tricky equation, where generally the way a book is written, is as important as what it is about. One is incomplete without the other, and in the process of translation, it's as if taking an oil painting, and redoing it as a water color. The brushstrokes are different, the colors are different, and the overall feel is going to simply be different, even if what it portays is still the same.

Ultimately, I think this is what is so great about foreign movies, games, music, etc. The only part that needs good translating is the dialogue, as long as the content is portrayed accurately in the more visual and/or interactive form, then it sidesteps the issues of language.

[nordlys]

Wrana said:
Unfortunately, T$R didn't give a damn about what is canon and what is not. Which caused many contradictions between authors describing their worlds. And I don't mean fiction only - there were quite a few contradictions in their accessories!

Well, [censored] happens. Not a single "shared world"-type work of fiction is guaranteed to be contradiction-free. Hell, even single-author series occasionally slip. I remembed having a huge flame with some Tolkien fan over the issue of orcs' intelligence, as he referred to some obscure late letters where Tolkien decided orcs are some kind of mindless beings, thus assumedly "overriding" their obvious sentience of published novels.

At least TSR didn't have to retcon whole accessories as insane ravings, like White Wolf had to do with "Dirty secrets of black hand" and some other 2ed stuff, essentially "replacing" it with another accessory and erasing most traces of its lore in 3ed. I only remember them to officially rule non-canon the "Lord of the Necropolis" Ravenloft novel, dissing its revelations on Dark Powers as Azalin's hallucinations. They also removed the references to Soth from Ravenloft by the end of 2ed, and various Forgotten Realms references in 3ed, when Ravenloft was licensed to Swords&Sorcery, but that was for legal reasons, and they just changed names to generic crap like "Dark Knight" or "Morninglord".

...Not to mention that finding bugs and contradictions in such works is an entertainment in itself

I didn't mean those - just because I don't play 40K and so wasn't interested in those books. Maybe they are quite bad - I'd only read one which wasn't bad for trash literature... I believe I named authors I meant - Jack Yeovil in particular and he never written in 40K series. He was reprinted some time ago, though...

I haven't read the Genevieve novels if that's what you mean. Yeovil is a pseudonym, I saw him/her mentioned in an article by some other early GW writer I've recently read as one of those who used pseudonyms as to keep their reputation untarnished by gaming fiction

[MaxWilson]

nordlys said:
Well, [censored] happens. Not a single "shared world"-type work of fiction is guaranteed to be contradiction-free. H***, even single-author series occasionally slip.

And some (Steven Brust comes to mind) seem to insert contradictions deliberately, just to mess with readers' heads. This is the same author who, knowing that some fans like to read the Vlad series in chronological order, admits that he deliberately wrote /Dragon/ to take place both before AFTER after /Yendi/.

The fiend! [shakes fist at heavens]

-Max

[HoneyBadger]

I'm actually agreeing with you, Wrana, in case you missed that part.

I'm just explaining that first of all, getting people interested in reading is probably a good thing.

And bad sci fi (or future fantasy) isn't necessarily any better, or any more realistic or accurate, than bad fantasy.

Once again from the top: I'm NOT a fan of Robert Jordan, George Martin, Raymond Feist, Terry Brooks, Terry Goodkind, or David Eddings. I am familiar with their works, however, because I read them probably 10 years ago or more, and they do have their good qualities, generally concerning their earlier works, and in their attempt to recreate/reinvigorate the fantasy genre, by infusing it with as much creativity as they're capable of. I no longer bother reading them, because their works have become bloated, unimaginative, uninspired, and stale, and in some cases graphically violent and pornographic, in such a ham-handed way, vulgar way, that it's actually a turn-off. I simply find that I have better things to read.

I'm also not a real big fan of Tolkien or Piers Anthony, but I'll still re-read The Hobbit every few years, and once in a great while I'll read one of Anthony's more bizarre non-Xanth novels, if only because of how truly kooky they can get.

As far as Russian novelists go, I realize that Russia has a long and impressive tradition, and we are starting to see more translations over here in the 'States. I sadly have almost 0 background in the Russian language, although my mother did take Russian language courses when she was in highschool.

If you could recommend some works that have been translated, or better yet, translated, and made freely available on the internet (it's great advertizement, especially for relatively unfamiliar authors, and testing shows that it increases, rather than reducing, sales of hard copies), then I'd happily spend time seeking them out. Until then, it does little to *say* that the Russians have a better space-program, er novel, until it can be quantified with proof

[JimMorrison]

Piers Anthony? Say it ain't so! The only thing I ever read, that filled my gut with a sense of ill-ease deeper than Gulliver's Travels could inflict me with, was a brief passage from some atrocious Xanth novel that a friend considered hilarious. Okay, deep breaths..... He just thinks he's some sort of high octane version of Dr Seuss, it drives me mad.

Okay, sorry. I guess reading these latest posts made me want so badly to be the reviewer that kicks a writer's teeth in, I feel better now.


I think the thing with Russian vs English fiction is a deeper and more subtle issue, really. I've been very entertained by much of the Russian fiction I've been exposed to - recently watched Daywatch/Nightwatch, and I've gotten a few Russian made CRPGs that are fun - but I can't say that I very highly rate the writing. And I think really, translation just does terrible things for any profound writing - because that precisely special combination of words that strikes something in you, well the other language may not even have them at all, or the translator may substitute a word that has additional connotations that weren't intended, or if it is your second language, some nuances simply may be missed. I think this issue is even greater when it involves the English language, as we have borrowed so many words from so many other languages, that for example if you enter "wise" into thesaurus.reference.com, you get a truncated list of 50 synonyms. Many translators may not know what all of the subtle differences are, and in creative writing, sometimes one word is substituted for another not on merit of connotation, but simply because of the shape and sound of the word. You lose poetic nuances like that the moment it is translated.

Fiction is a fickle mistress. At the point that someone says "I don't get it", the artistic expression is lost, and it has spelled doom for the story. People will generally tend to hold in higher regard the earlier things that they read and digested, because even if they are a bit trite or underdone, they'll still express many new concepts, and broaden one's horizons. So maybe if Piers Anthony was the first fiction I read, I'd like him - and maybe recommend him to people on some basis - but luckily, that is not the case. <3

[MaxWilson]

Don't judge Piers Anthony's writing by the never-ending Xanth series. Some of his books (Macroscope) and the first few (2-3) Xanth books are sort of mildly good. The never-ending Xanth stories are a money machine which he apparently thinks he'd be a fool not to milk--think of them as his day job.

-Max

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah, you'll notice that I took the time to clarify that I take my Piers Anthony strictly non-Xanth. As long as you avoid them, and any other series he's written, past say the third or fourth book, you'll be ok. Some of his series I've read farther than that, but I don't take responsibility for the quality. He may not be consistently great, and he's certainly not everybody's cup of tea, but what can I say? he writes well to teenaged males, and I used to be a very troubled teenager (I've since matured into a very troubled adult). Him and Tom Deitz are the first two authors that I'd point any hormonal adolescent towards, were I forced kicking and screaming into near proximity with them. I'd add Harry Harrison, but the sad fact is that a lot of his best early work hasn't aged all that well.

One thing that Piers Anthony does, that I really approve of, is that he always (or almost always) includes an Author's Note at the end of his books, taking the time to actually explain something of what was going on in his head or whatever, when he was writing the book. I for one appreciate having a little insight into my authors and their writing process, and it sets him apart from others mentioned, as much as any factor of his writing quality.