Question about diplomacy

[Aapeli]

Originally Posted by Dedas

I believe there was a game some time back where it wasn't revealed what nation everyone played until after the game was over. I think that was a great way to separate your forum person from your game person.

I actually almost never keep track on whos who in games. The nation matters more alltough sometimes its good to know if your bordering experienced players. If I have to pm to my neighbour (in game messaging is slow) then I look it up on the first post.

[konming]

It is not inviolable in any sense in most games, unlike some people would like you to believe. The only consequences are that people will trust you less, and are less inclined to enter treaties with you, in this game or in other games. It is not really a big deal.

[Crust]

But if it's only that there is no difference between games with inviolable treaties and those without.

[llamabeast]

LLama, "many players" infers a majority. Might be better to restate it as "some players" to be more general.

I was trying to ensure I was being fair to the inviolable-NAPs group, who I felt I was in danger of offending. I'll consider a mild rewording.

I think posting about people breaking deals is good, that's part of the disincentive to do so.

So long as it's only within that game, I definitely agree. If people try to slur the name of that player more widely, I think that's most distasteful*. Particularly if it's a game where NAPs are not considered inviolable, reputation should be local to that game. That encourages role-playing. I'd love to play a sneaky weasel Moloch one game, and an honourable dragon the next, with no-one distrusting my dragon any the less because of my moloch's naughty behaviour.

* - I am assuming that the NAP breaker was not aware he was doing anything wrong, which is, I think, almost always the case, since few people here are immature enough to deliberately break rules.

[LoloMo]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

I was trying to ensure I was being fair to the inviolable-NAPs group, who I felt I was in danger of offending. I'll consider a mild rewording.

So long as it's only within that game, I definitely agree. If people try to slur the name of that player more widely, I think that's most distasteful*. Particularly if it's a game where NAPs are not considered inviolable, reputation should be local to that game. That encourages role-playing. I'd love to play a sneaky weasel Moloch one game, and an honourable dragon the next, with no-one distrusting my dragon any the less because of my moloch's naughty behaviour.

* - I am assuming that the NAP breaker was not aware he was doing anything wrong, which is, I think, almost always the case, since few people here are immature enough to deliberately break rules.

Because there is no way to tell whether you are currently playing the sneaky weasel Moloch or the honorable dragon in the current game. For all I know, you could be playing the sneaky weasel dragon all the time.

[LoloMo]

I would not break NAPs, and all the top players I know do not break NAPs. And the fact that they don't break NAPs I believe is an important part of their strategy.

Many people view NAPs as an out of character agreement, just like trading items or gems. I am one of those. There is not much roleplaying in most of the games I have played. And the NAP breakers I have spotted do not roleplay.

As a player who does not break NAPs, I believe I can play more strategically, as I have to be careful who I make NAPs with. By making NAPs with a player who does not break NAPs, my back is protected to the extent of the NAP. I would not make NAPs with a NAP breaker, as that would put me at a severe disadvantage, as I don't break NAPs.

In my experience, NAP breakers are very few. If you consider only players who have played more than 5 MP games on these boards, the list is even fewer.

For me, the scheming and plotting comes before the NAPs are signed. You fake strength, cajole, threaten, bribe others to sign the NAP. My diplomatic energy is spent there, not on trying to convince others why breaking that NAP is justified.

And I love these threads, I visit them from time to time, especially when I'm offered a NAP by someone whom I have never played against before

[Edi]

Every now and then someone who got burned by a broken NAP in some MP game either posts a thread where the intent is to list "known NAP-breakers" or asks the mods about posting such. This is not the first or second or third time it comes up in a discussion.

The reason such threads have been and will be quashed on sight is that they are nothing but useless flamebait. Broken NAPs are an issue within the specific game (as exemplified by llamabeasts post above with the moloch/dragon example) and discussion of specific NAPs and specific games belong in the appropriate threads. Taking those issues out of the game threads and bringing them out to the wider forum in an attempt to either "warn everyone else" or to just get even amounts to a vendetta against the targeted user and is against the forum rules.

If allowed, the only thing they would do is divide the community into mutually hostile groups and once you were seen to fall into one camp or the other, it would not be long before there would be flaming across group lines even in unrelated discussions. I've seen things like that happen on other forums, so it's useless to try to argue with me that it wouldn't happen here. At my most charitable, I'd consider it ignorant bleating.

So while discussion of NAPs and how binding they should be and when is okay on a general level (such as this thread), any attempted listings of NAP-breakers are not. That kind of trouble will be nipped in the bud, so any such lists people may wish to post they can do on their own web pages, which obviously are not subject to the Shrapnel Forum community rules.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Edi

Every now and then someone who got burned by a broken NAP in some MP game either posts a thread where the intent is to list "known NAP-breakers" or asks the mods about posting such. This is not the first or second or third time it comes up in a discussion.

The reason such threads have been and will be quashed on sight is that they are nothing but useless flamebait. Broken NAPs are an issue within the specific game (as exemplified by llamabeasts post above with the moloch/dragon example) and discussion of specific NAPs and specific games belong in the appropriate threads. Taking those issues out of the game threads and bringing them out to the wider forum in an attempt to either "warn everyone else" or to just get even amounts to a vendetta against the targeted user and is against the forum rules.

If allowed, the only thing they would do is divide the community into mutually hostile groups and once you were seen to fall into one camp or the other, it would not be long before there would be flaming across group lines even in unrelated discussions. I've seen things like that happen on other forums, so it's useless to try to argue with me that it wouldn't happen here. At my most charitable, I'd consider it ignorant bleating.

So while discussion of NAPs and how binding they should be and when is okay on a general level (such as this thread), any attempted listings of NAP-breakers are not. That kind of trouble will be nipped in the bud, so any such lists people may wish to post they can do on their own web pages, which obviously are not subject to the Shrapnel Forum community rules.

"useless flame bait"
"vendetta"
"ignorant bleating"

Edi - its difficult to tell here if your opinion is as a user, or as a moderator. Which is a bit unfair.

However your colorization of the issue *is* against the very shrapnel rules you are quoting. I think its great to explain that these kinds of posts will be nipped.

While I may disagree with the decision - you are just presenting the actual policy. However, calling it 'ignorant bleating' goes over the line.

"Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is whenever someone is clearly, deliberately posting in a manner for the purpose of angering and/or insulting the other participants of the board. Trolling could be directed towards one user or a group of users. Trolling DOES NOT encourage further discussion, it only encourages personal attacks (if left unchecked) and will not be tolerated."

Also "Flaming, humiliating, ridiculing, or belittling other members will not be tolerated."

Which applies to users and *groups of users*

Also, respectfully, I have reviewed the forum rules, in their entirety, several times. Again, I accept the decision as made, but I see nothing in the rules that says what you says it does,
aka

"posting a list of game actions or events is against the forum rules."

Rather, I believe the moderators have made a decision they believe in the best interests of the board. I support that. I just don't support saying that posting a list of nap breakers is against forum policy, when its not.

Respectfully

[Edi]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

"useless flame bait"
"vendetta"
"ignorant bleating"

Edi - its difficult to tell here if your opinion is as a user, or as a moderator. Which is a bit unfair.

However your colorization of the issue *is* against the very shrapnel rules you are quoting. I think its great to explain that these kinds of posts will be nipped.

While I may disagree with the decision - you are just presenting the actual policy. However, calling it 'ignorant bleating' goes over the line.

"Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is whenever someone is clearly, deliberately posting in a manner for the purpose of angering and/or insulting the other participants of the board. Trolling could be directed towards one user or a group of users. Trolling DOES NOT encourage further discussion, it only encourages personal attacks (if left unchecked) and will not be tolerated."

Also "Flaming, humiliating, ridiculing, or belittling other members will not be tolerated."

Which applies to users and *groups of users*

Also, respectfully, I have reviewed the forum rules, in their entirety, several times. Again, I accept the decision as made, but I see nothing in the rules that says what you says it does,
aka

"posting a list of game actions or events is against the forum rules."

Rather, I believe the moderators have made a decision they believe in the best interests of the board. I support that. I just don't support saying that posting a list of nap breakers is against forum policy, when its not.

Respectfully

Chris. this reply to you is not made in a capacity as a moderator, even though it touches the reasoning of the previous post. As I am an active participant in our discussion, I cannot moderate it without a conflict of interest, so I will not.

The characterization of NAP-brekaer list threads as useless flamebait arises out of the fact that they always devolve into flamewars. The few times they went on for some time before being locked, they became flamewars in short order. Flamewars do not serve the community in any capacity, hence they are useless.

The vendetta part: Taking things out of a game thread and separating them out of the context of the game where they happened can appear to be a vendetta if that action would lead to provoking the target. That has also happened in the past, things taken out of threads to pursue private arguments in public and flaming on all sides. It has even led to some users being banned here. In general, when I use the term vendetta in relation to online forums, it means having a grudge with a person rather than a person's arguments and pursuing that grudge even in threads unrelated to the one where the disagreement first arose. It is not a derogatory term or used in a loaded fashion. I have no idea what you read into that word.

The ignorant bleating part: The wording is harsh, yes. It was perhaps a bit unwise to use that exact phrase. Doesn't change the fact that I have seen situations like the ones it refers to spiraling out of control and dividing communities. Having seen that, there are no arguments that would persuade me otherwise and I would consider the person making them to be speaking out of ignorance. If they were to insist on repeating those arguments, then perhaps the harsher wording would be justified. I'm sorry if you took it as a personal insult, but it was not meant as one. My post was general in nature, not addressed to anyone specifically.

It's part of the forum rules that things disruptive to the community are not to be posted and there is some latitude given to moderators on what topics can be considered such. For the reasons mentioned above, the publication of the kind of lists as have been discussed here are considered that and thus not allowed.

If there is more disagreement about this, please take the issue up with the other moderators or the administrators in private instead of pursuing it here.

[licker]

Sigh...

And this is why if you USE diplomacy even when you break a NAP these issues are not as severe as people want to make them.

Sure if someone just breaks the NAP and sends you 'PWNED u n00b!@!!' then of course you're going to not bother taking them seriously in another game.

If they actually give you a reasonable reason for their actions (even as much as an apology, not that it matters...) you are probably going to understand their position, even if you disagree with it.

As I've been saying, it seems as though the 'honorable' crowd is both incredibly lazy and touchy when it comes to diplomacy, and guess what... that sword cuts both ways as well.