Questions that have nothing to do with MP games I have joined

[Illuminated One]

Hmm, if I win a battle and get items from the enemy that I can't use now but like to keep for later I put them on the scout that carries the gems.
That way they are not gone when I loose a battle.

[thejeff]

You send them into the battle as werewolves. Since they don't change in battle, they don't change afterwards. The price is more fatigue for your buffs.

AoE 3 means 3 contiguous squares.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by rabelais

7. Why would one take exactly magic 2 or drain 1 instead of the more point advantageous magic 1 or drain2? Seems like it needs to be modtweaked if that is possible.

I thought that this was kind of intentional. The +2 research is such an advantage that it just costs 80 points.

And the -2 research is such a disadvantage that you get 80 points for the additional -1.

[MaxWilson]

Soyweiser,

Are you playing with a mod or something? In vanilla Dom3, +2 to research costs 120 points (Magic-3). Rabelais was asking why anyone would pay 80 points for Magic-2 (+1 research) when they could just pay 40 points for Magic-1 (also +1 research) instead.

-120 points: -2 research
-80 points: -1 research
-40 points: -1 research [nobody takes this]
0 points: +0 research
40 points: +1 research
80 points: +1 research [nobody takes this either]
120 points: +2 research

Some people (including me, currently) increase the bonus/malus to +/- 1 per point of Magic.

-Max

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

Soyweiser,

Are you playing with a mod or something? In vanilla Dom3, +2 to research costs 120 points (Magic-3).

I meant compared to +1. The additional +1 (for a total bonus of +2) costs 80 points. The first +1 is worth 40 points. The second one is 80 points. 120 total.

[Tifone]

@ Max - Well as you know Magic doesn't control just this - even MR and casting fatigue. Still yeah, I often take M1 or D2 too but never M2 or D1

[MaxWilson]

But the first +1 isn't worth less than the second +1. In fact, proportionately the first one is worth more. (If your national mages are 4 RP, 40 points gets you +25% RP, from 4 to 5. Then the second 80 points only boosts you another 20% from 5 to 6. On a 10 RP nation like Shinuyama it's 10% and 9%, respectively, but the first one is always worth more. Conversely, Drain-3 hurts lots more than Drain-2. Vanheim should never take Drain-3.)

-Max

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

But the first +1 isn't worth less than the second +1. In fact, proportionately the first one is worth more. (If your national mages are 4 RP, 40 points gets you +25% RP, from 4 to 5. Then the second 80 points only boosts you another 20% from 5 to 6. On a 10 RP nation like Shinuyama it's 10% and 9%, respectively, but the first one is always worth more. Conversely, Drain-3 hurts lots more than Drain-2. Vanheim should never take Drain-3.)

-Max

Yes, that is true, the second is worth less in proportion. But not in game terms. Having a nation with better researchers is always good. And because you always recruit at least one mage each turn for research. The relatively small additional +1 bonus grows to a large bonus in the end.

Research is so important for getting into the end-game, that having a large bonus on research, or a large penalty. Determines if you get there faster or slower.

If we both play nations with the same kind of national mages, the one with the highest magic rating will probably get the end game spells quicker. In that regard having a large bonus (from magic-3) or a large penalty (from drain-3) should be worth more points than only the lesser penalties or bonuses.

Higher magic also makes the indy mages (such as shamans) better suited for research. And when you look at this combined with multiple fortresses, the little proportional bonus of the second +1 grows to a very large bonus.

The same with drain-3. Your research is really down the drain. Most indy mages only give 1 rp. So are totally not worth it.

The gold cost per rp is also decreased with a higher magic. With Shinuyama for example, normally you pay 300 for a 10 rp unit. so that is 30 for each 1 rp. with a 1 gold upkeep for each rp.
Drain -3 -> 37,5 per rp, 1,25 gold upkeep
Drain -2 -1 -> 33,33 per rp, 1,11 gold upkeep
Magic +1 +2 -> 27,27 per rp, 0.90 gold upkeep
Magic +3 -> 25 per rp, 0.83 gold upkeep

So if you buy 10 of them, one each turn, after eleven turns you have the following totals rp (buying ten, one each turn for eleven turns gives you 55 turns of research).
-3 : 440
-2 -1 : 495
+0 : 550
+1 +2 : 605
+3 : 660

So having a high magic rating gives you a very large research bonus over nations not having a large magic bonus. Having a leading position in research should be worth more points.

And taking drain-3 is always taking a large risk. If a nation takes -3 and some other nation has +3, you have a very large research gap very fast.

(This is also why imho LA-ermor shouldn't take drain. They cannot recruit mages (no gold), only summon them. The mages are in short supply, so if you get behind in research it is almost impossible to close the gap. And you really need to get the late game/mid game spells with LA-ermor).

So while proportionally the first +1 might be worth more, in strategic terms the second +1 is imho worth more. It gives you a large cumulative advantage, and it increases the already existing advantage.

Edit:
Total RP after 21 turns for different nations (20 recruited base 10 rp mages) (20 recruited base 6 rp mages (seems to be the average of recruitable mages))
-3 1760 880
-2 1980 1100
+0 2200 1320
+1 2420 1540
+3 2640 1760
220 mage turns of research.

[JimMorrison]

Oddly, the benefits of Magic3 can seem a bit obscure. I think that investing in Magic scale, is investing in your mid and late game, and unlike most design choices, it has almost 0 impact on your early game, which is why most people totally overlook it.

I have a couple of nations that I like Magic 3 with, benefits include reliably getting to Cons 8 first, but otherwise vary richly depending on nation. This seems to work best overall with nations who have a single path mage, so you end up getting 5 RP for 60-80g. That's a benefit that compounds rapidly on itself.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Yes, that is true, the second is worth less in proportion. But not in game terms. Having a nation with better researchers is always good. And because you always recruit at least one mage each turn for research. The relatively small additional +1 bonus grows to a large bonus in the end.

Research is so important for getting into the end-game, that having a large bonus on research, or a large penalty. Determines if you get there faster or slower.

If we both play nations with the same kind of national mages, the one with the highest magic rating will probably get the end game spells quicker. In that regard having a large bonus (from magic-3) or a large penalty (from drain-3) should be worth more points than only the lesser penalties or bonuses.

Higher magic also makes the indy mages (such as shamans) better suited for research. And when you look at this combined with multiple fortresses, the little proportional bonus of the second +1 grows to a very large bonus.

The same with drain-3. Your research is really down the drain. Most indy mages only give 1 rp. So are totally not worth it.

The gold cost per rp is also decreased with a higher magic. With Shinuyama for example, normally you pay 300 for a 10 rp unit. so that is 30 for each 1 rp. with a 1 gold upkeep for each rp.
Drain -3 -> 37,5 per rp, 1,25 gold upkeep
Drain -2 -1 -> 33,33 per rp, 1,11 gold upkeep
Magic +1 +2 -> 27,27 per rp, 0.90 gold upkeep
Magic +3 -> 25 per rp, 0.83 gold upkeep

So if you buy 10 of them, one each turn, after eleven turns you have the following totals rp (buying ten, one each turn for eleven turns gives you 55 turns of research).
-3 : 440
-2 -1 : 495
+0 : 550
+1 +2 : 605
+3 : 660

So having a high magic rating gives you a very large research bonus over nations not having a large magic bonus. Having a leading position in research should be worth more points.

And taking drain-3 is always taking a large risk. If a nation takes -3 and some other nation has +3, you have a very large research gap very fast.

(This is also why imho LA-ermor shouldn't take drain. They cannot recruit mages (no gold), only summon them. The mages are in short supply, so if you get behind in research it is almost impossible to close the gap. And you really need to get the late game/mid game spells with LA-ermor).

So while proportionally the first +1 might be worth more, in strategic terms the second +1 is imho worth more. It gives you a large cumulative advantage, and it increases the already existing advantage.

Edit:
Total RP after 21 turns for different nations (20 recruited base 10 rp mages) (20 recruited base 6 rp mages (seems to be the average of recruitable mages))
-3 1760 880
-2 1980 1100
+0 2200 1320
+1 2420 1540
+3 2640 1760
220 mage turns of research.

There are quite a few factors that are overlooked here.

The chance of getting a dominion scale flip is related to the difference between the present scale, and ideal scale. So a Magic2 will flip to magic 1 far faster than magic 1 will.

Secondly; Each step in the magic scale adds or subtracts fatigue to casters as well as the bonus/malus to rp and save.
And D2/m2 values do change over d1/m1.

Finally, hypothetically, some random events are unlocked with M levels.