Realistic Artillery Management by a FOO - Page 4

Marek_Tucan · #1 November 28th, 2008, 05:37 PM

Re smoke, is it so hard to imagine that those puffs of smoke above enemy artillery are just an abstraction to cover: flash spotting, CB aerial recon, noise detection, or, in more modern days, CB radars (used already in 1944) and other technical means? Those are available to artillerymen in real life and would be extremely hard to model in-game.

PanzerBob · #2 December 2nd, 2008, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

Re smoke, is it so hard to imagine that those puffs of smoke above enemy artillery are just an abstraction to cover: flash spotting, CB aerial recon, noise detection, or, in more modern days, CB radars (used already in 1944) and other technical means? Those are available to artillerymen in real life and would be extremely hard to model in-game.

That is how I've looked at it. So I have no problem at all.

Bob out

DRG · #3 November 28th, 2008, 06:06 PM

It's a game, accept it as part of the game. We do

Don

Marek_Tucan · #4 January 2nd, 2009, 10:38 AM

Some more lazy thoughts about arty...
What about "house rules" allowing just offboard arty and mortars to attack reverse slopes, limiting onboard guns to "direct LOS" only fire? Would be of course complicated, you'd have (prior to setting target) to check manually (Z key) whether the target is in LOS, but OTOH you'd have then to use field and infantry guns in the way they were designed to, ie place them on a place with good field of fire and then blast away... Would apply to rockets most likely as well, in fact (atleast modern) rocket artillery has usually huge dead ground (min. range of MLRS is about 10 km, ie 200 hexes, minimal range of BM-21 less - 1500 m (30 hexes) and 500m for direct fire).
Opinions?

Cross · #5 January 2nd, 2009, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

Some more lazy thoughts about arty...
What about "house rules" allowing just offboard arty and mortars to attack reverse slopes, limiting onboard guns to "direct LOS" only fire? Would be of course complicated, you'd have (prior to setting target) to check manually (Z key) whether the target is in LOS, but OTOH you'd have then to use field and infantry guns in the way they were designed to, ie place them on a place with good field of fire and then blast away... Would apply to rockets most likely as well, in fact (atleast modern) rocket artillery has usually huge dead ground (min. range of MLRS is about 10 km, ie 200 hexes, minimal range of BM-21 less - 1500 m (30 hexes) and 500m for direct fire).
Opinions?

This will force players to use off-board artillery for indirect fire; the good thing about this is that it forces players to target by the troop (instead of individual guns) which is more realistic.

Apart from that, you will be introducing - to many - the joyous art of direct fire howitzers

which I love to use, but prefer to use when there's decent visibility and hills.

It's actually not a bad idea; and it's simple, and will no doubt address some of the concerns of those who want to limit artillery.

But why shouldn't I be able to use light artillery for indirect fire on a 7KM by 7KM map?

It's good to have on map artillery, because it forces players to think about a front line and take break-throughs seriously. It helps model the real concern that Battalions usually had about protecting their rear echelon units.

One of my opponents suggested that you shouldn't be able to use on map arty for indirect fire if you move it. I understand that guns have to be sighted in, but guns in the RA always had a second site ready to move to, when needed. Tough to model these details.

cheers,
Cross

Marek_Tucan · #6 January 4th, 2009, 04:32 PM

Sorry for delay, got a bit of webus interruptus here over the weekend, seems that my ratties have tried whether the ADSL cable is edible

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cross

This will force players to use off-board artillery for indirect fire; the good thing about this is that it forces players to target by the troop (instead of individual guns) which is more realistic.

Apart from that, you will be introducing - to many - the joyous art of direct fire howitzers

which I love to use, but prefer to use when there's decent visibility and hills.

Was not thinking as much about restricting the guns to "gun shoots where it sees only" but "where flat trajectory allows", ie they may be called by another unit (or may fire beyond their visibility), but only to places with direct LOS.

Quote:

It's actually not a bad idea; and it's simple, and will no doubt address some of the concerns of those who want to limit artillery.

It requires manual checking with the guns, that is a bother, but needed forit to work...

Quote:

But why shouldn't I be able to use light artillery for indirect fire on a 7KM by 7KM map?

That's of course the "grey area"

But as most onboard light guns (atleast in WW2) are fixed charge guns (even if capable of high elevations), they'd have quite a problem getting at the reverse slopes even if they were low-velocity and high-elevation (as leIG-18) - I always got the impression that the high elev was intended to be used rather for direct fire in mountains etc. than to allow wildly inaccurate indirect fire. Would require further research and won't concern too many weapons I think. Or the rule might be altered to "whatever has "howitzer" in its spec may dire reverse slope missions, whatever is gun has to fire only where the direct trajectory allows".

Quote:

It's good to have on map artillery, because it forces players to think about a front line and take break-throughs seriously. It helps model the real concern that Battalions usually had about protecting their rear echelon units.

This would also force player to think about another historical matter - that "infantry escort" field guns (like French 75 or leIG or Russian 76mm shorties) had to be moved relatively close behind the infantry and hunt for places with good fields of fire rather than be sitting in a battery in a wood back behind the lines and shelling whatever spot the commander wants them to...
And it would also show why the mortars became so darn popular - because they do not need to be in the line of fire (old truism that if the enemy is in range, so are you).

Quote:

One of my opponents suggested that you shouldn't be able to use on map arty for indirect fire if you move it. I understand that guns have to be sighted in, but guns in the RA always had a second site ready to move to, when needed. Tough to model these details.

cheers,
Cross

Possible via house rules (of course, depending on player honesty)

For example re. the second site an agreement might be made that each player chooses alternative site for each of his indirect arty units and may fire indirect missions only from these two, or direct from anywhere else.

Thanks for your reply, at the very least now I know the idea is not entirely insane. Just mildly so

PanzerBob · #7 January 4th, 2009, 07:35 PM

IMHO these ideas have merit, implementation either by rules, or hardwiring (Not sure if that would feasible) is the problem. The other thing that comes to mind is what kind of slope does it have to be before the reverse slope is a problem?

As far as the "shorties" go, with the new arty routines getting those guns more forward maybe a more effective way to utilize them, especially against mobile forces. If I'm not mistaken this was how they used at certain times anyway.

Bob out

Marek_Tucan · #8 January 6th, 2009, 03:31 AM

[quote=PanzerBob;664021]IMHO these ideas have merit, implementation either by rules, or hardwiring (Not sure if that would feasible) is the problem.
[quote]
Not even thinking about hardwiring

Quote:

The other thing that comes to mind is what kind of slope does it have to be before the reverse slope is a problem?

Here I have to frankly admit that I do not know

One of the reasons why I posted the idea here in fact