MP: Chlorolera is made of contagious and deadly!

[DonCorazon]

Good game Admiral. It was sad to have such a research lead and not be able to capitalize on it. Did BoT do much to you? I had the Chalice and a source of blood for Boots of Youth so thought I could ward off some of the ill effects. But once Bandar surrendered to you, there wasn't much I could do without violating the NAP which is why I was willing to throw in the towel. I had hoped to fight long enough for your mages and troops to start keeling over and was building labs with that golem to gate in troops in some random spots once our NAP expired...

Anyway, my lessons for this game:
1. Don't play on non-wraparound maps
2. Don't sign a NAP longer than 5 turns
3. Don't piss off the monkeys

[cleveland]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

2. Don't sign a NAP longer than 5 turns

When I think back on how many glorious wars Machaka could have been embroiled in, I'm going to learn this lesson as "Don't sign a NAP ever." Better to die on your feet than live on your knees, Lord Obamono.

ps - BillyWitchDoctor.com takes the top spot in the Hall of Fame! With an aesthetically pleasing 2^8 kills!

[Quitti]

Heh, I should've attacked Shin the second I got a border with them. Even refused to sign a NAP with them to keep opportunities open - but unfortunately I was on my way to start a war with Jotunheim - should've paid more attention to graphs at that point. I never even did get the chance to break the NAP with Jotunheim - I was still building army for that moment, and getting holy pyre (and other evocations) researched in case their master lich would've provided some nasty skeletal surprises. And then came BoT, which really hurt us - all mages of ma marig are old age (except for f1 nonsacred somewhat useless ones). Actually I think I had only one commander without afflictions in the force I was gathering to shin's border (After giving up on the Jotunheim part and seeing that shin was such a threat).

It really sounds like you had the ultimate starting position - 5 out of 6 with 10k pop is insane. It would provide the fuel for the rest of the game. All I had was some random forests :/

[Zapmeister]

Originally Posted by cleveland

When I think back on how many glorious wars Machaka could have been embroiled in, I'm going to learn this lesson as "Don't sign a NAP ever." Better to die on your feet than live on your knees, Lord Obamono.

First up, congratulations to the Admiral and thanks to Juffos for running the game, but I'd also like to comment on this NAP business.

I'm not going to admit my age here, but suffice it to say that I cut my MP teeth on a boardgame called Diplomacy shortly after it was invented, in which agreements between players was the central theme.

The thing is, everyone understood that treaties and the like, while being essential tools for sorting out your friends from your enemies and arranging short-term operations, were never regarded as binding.

It's was a little disconcerting, I suppose, to come into this community and discover that these "NAPs" are regarded by many people as similar to legal contracts that cannot be broken, even in the extreme situation we faced in this game.

This is not a whine just an observation about the evolution of diplomacy in multiplayer games. While I acknowledge that others see it differently, I do still believe that trying to make treaties binding in a game does not improve the game.

I actually regard myself as a reliable ally. In-game relationships built up through a history of co-operation are the most valuable, I think, and I try to build a lot of them. I just hate it when people ask for certainty. I always want the option to stab, even if I rarely use it.

Just my 2c,
Zap.

[Jazzepi]

Originally Posted by Zapmeister

It's was a little disconcerting, I suppose, to come into this community and discover that these "NAPs" are regarded by many people as similar to legal contracts that cannot be broken, even in the extreme situation we faced in this game.

Those are the ones I enjoy backstabbing the most

Jazzepi

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Zapmeister

It's was a little disconcerting, I suppose, to come into this community and discover that these "NAPs" are regarded by many people as similar to legal contracts that cannot be broken, even in the extreme situation we faced in this game.

And that's exactly the reason why Discharge (another MP game) has "machiavellian" diplomacies - like real world. Breaking a treaty might benefit you, forging a solid trust can benefit you even more. It all depends. Just keep in mind, it's said in llamaserver faq about starting a game:

Now, this first post needs to include all the details of the game:
...
- Diplomacy policy (are treaties considered unbreakable, or is this a Machiavellian world?)

I usually consider it a machiavellian game if it's not stated that it's not. I suggest everyone do the same. If something is not EXPLICTLY forbidden, it must be allowed. There's no gray area between them in this case.

[archaeolept]

excessive NAPage has become a real problem, IMO. If I were starting a game, I would put a limit on the number of turns a legitimate NAP could be.

Also, it is absurd to believe that NAP's can't be broken under force majeure. If someone is going to win (as in this case), NAPs are vitiated.

[DonCorazon]

Well, there were a lot of problems in this game, and violating a NAP wasn't going to do much to fix it. I view it as my responsibility not to enter into a NAP if I can't deal with the consequences.

My strong preference would be to play games with either NO diplomacy like RAND or ones where NAPs are explicitly unenforceable and in fact encouraged to be broken. I am kind of sick of the whole, NAP with 2 of my 3 neighbors and attack the 3rd strategy. So much of the game then just comes down to geography.

[AdmiralZhao]

For BoT, it is effective, but not as bad you might expect. You would think that the Baekomono mages would die like flies from it, since they are all 50 years over their expected lifespan. Since they all have death 2-3 though, the old age doesn't bother them too badly. I lost 2 to feeblemind, and another 4-5 with mute. About a third of the others were catching diseases, but since they have 20 HPs they get 3-4 turns before they actually die. So it does hurt, and after 10-15 turns it would hurt a lot, but it's not quite the mage-armageddon you would expect.

[cleveland]

Hey Admiral, out of curiosity, how would you have dealt with ol' Billy? You taught me a great lesson about lightning immunity on high-mobility thugs in Kingmaker, just wondering how you'd have handled him with those simple Const4 toys he was holding.

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RE: NAP-Xs

Tribal Leader #1: "Greetings mighty Tribal Leader #2! I've got good news and bad news. The bad news is that our wise Tribal Counsel has decided that you, your children, your agents, and any person ever pledging allegiance to you is to be immediately annihilated from the face of the planet. Further, we are to take immediate possession of your rich lands, and enslave your cowed populace."

Tribal Leader #2: "Dang!"

Tribal Leader #1: "But the good news is that, despite the fact that our Fearless Warriors are at this moment poised to strike a decisive blow against your heartland - which would ensure a swift and relatively inexpensive victory - we're gonna wait till the Summer."

Tribal Leader #2: "We'll prepare our defenses!"

Tribal Leader #1: "You do that. And perhaps find a few allies in the mean time? Just be sure to tell all your friends to call on me, Tribal Leader #1, for all their annihilation needs."

-Transcript of dialogue on African Savannah, March 2nd, 9883 BC