3 bogarus questions - Page 3

Gregstrom · #1 February 2nd, 2009, 04:26 PM

No, Earth. You have no native access to Earth at all. I'm not even sure any of your heroes have it. Access to E3 early on for hammers etc. is really rather valuable.

I'd go with a bit of N too, even though it's easy enough to get some N access from tribesmen. That way you can summon a dryad to go clamming for you.

On strategies: You could try taking lots of Order, and treating your infantry as utterly expendable - they'll probably die anyway, so why not bank on it? You will be able to take on some LA nations just through sheer weight of numbers and hordes of cheap archers. And in some games you can get yourself a diplomatic advantage by pointing out your massive ability to spam banishes at Ermor.

Wrana · #2 February 2nd, 2009, 09:13 PM

Agree that Earth is generally good - it just wasn't clear from the post in question. At the same time you have E1 on Alchemist, while having absolutely no Nature - and good Nature summons. I would probably try to take both... it seems Rainbow is a good idea for a nation.

quantum_mechani · #3 February 2nd, 2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregstrom

No, Earth. You have no native access to Earth at all.

This is not true, check the alchemist.

VedalkenBear · #4 February 2nd, 2009, 10:08 PM

Well, I've been playing them again recently (as I said above), and this is under CBM 1.41.

Having said that, I've found that you _can_ do a rush to Conjuration 5 (and Bogarus has some of the best research in the late age) to gain access to the Gamayun. You can alternately do Conjuration-3 / Construction-4 (I _think_ Crown of Command is at that level? Maybe only 2).

See, CBM 1.4 apparently severely buffed Lady Midday and the Firebird. They now cost 1 Air/Fire gem respectively, and have other neat benefits. Lady Midday has Flying, Ethereal, Fear(+0), 20Att, and armed with a Plague Scythe that auto-diseases the target. Meanwhile, the Firebird has Awe(+0) and AoE1 Fire attack.

The reason you need Conjuration-5 is the Gamayun, an Air-2 Astral-2 Holy-2 Flying commander. This, to my knowledge, is the cheapest Magical Flying commander available to Bogarus, which you want for the mobility. (Note: All of the gems needed to summon these come from national income, if nothing else.)

Once I have this, I start summoning an equal number of Firebirds and Ladies Midday, constrained either by my Gems income or my Midday capacity (only your Death-random Starets can summon these). Once you have 30 (total) of these, summon a Gamayun to lead them and run amok.

I realize this is anecdotal, but I stopped a semi-competent computer Wyrm with one of these squads. (IIRC, the Wyrm was Earth/Water/Nature, and was trying to buff.) It took about 5 or 6 rounds, tops, with the Wyrm (by itself) retreating after the 4th or 5th round. Total losses: 3 units.

These guys aren't the new uberforce, but they are quite respectable for tier-3 Conjuration units. Clearly, one of their big issues is missile fire. Gamayuns should be able to Arrow Fend them.

Another nice unit is the Rusalka (Ravnica block flashback). Dunno about vanilla, but in CBM it's 6 water gems for a WD mage seductress. At least three nice uses for them. First, they can summon themselves. If you have a plethora of Water gems, they're 6 gems for 4 research plus scale, which isn't much worse than an Quill, and they're so much more versatile. Second, they're Assassins with Death magic. Basically, think Empoisoners that can also throw down Frozen Heart, and have a chance to steal the commander as well. Finally, they are Bogarus's route to Death magic, given a Pretender with W2. W1D1 + Construction-6 can go to W3D1, which is what is required for a Kokythiad, W3D3. From there the progression is obvious.

Anyway, that's what I've gotten so far. This current game, I haven't hired any national troops. I basically 'made do' with mercs (even my pretender is a rainbow) and my starting troops until the whirlwind squads came online.

KissBlade · #5 February 2nd, 2009, 11:18 PM

You /must/ get early evocation. The Conjurations are nice but they're more of a luxury since Bogarus with even a SC pretender will have a hard time opposing any real armies of any sort. The problem with those conjurations is that they are abominable on mage time. Startets to cast one lady midday is blech.

VedalkenBear · #6 February 3rd, 2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KissBlade

You /must/ get early evocation. The Conjurations are nice but they're more of a luxury since Bogarus with even a SC pretender will have a hard time opposing any real armies of any sort. The problem with those conjurations is that they are abominable on mage time. Startets to cast one lady midday is blech.

Oh, I don't doubt this in the least for MP. However, I don't think my post gave anything but a SP perspective. I will say that if I don't go with a Rainbow Pretender, I generally go with a Father of Winter (either a 'safe' SC with good scales or A/W/E/N with poorer scales).

Also, I don't recall offhand, but what's the requirements for, er, wow, the Lightning BE (Heavenly Wrath)? While the Gamayun has limited slots, she can get all the way up to 4A easily (5A if you score the Tome of High Magic or Ring of Wizardry). She's also Lightning-Immune, so can run around cackling madly in the midst of BE Lightning damage.

Another amusing thing about the Gamayun is that she has exactly the slots required to be able to cast Wrath of God.

Kuritza: The reason I consider the Gamayun is that she flies, and she has Magic Leadership. Both are needed to make full use out of the early national summons that Bogarus has.

chrispedersen · #7 February 3rd, 2009, 04:49 PM

Valken,

When I do a MP bogarus build, the two best builds I came up with are Father of Winter and Gaia, as well.

Kuritza · #8 February 3rd, 2009, 05:34 AM

I suggested water/earth for two reasons. First, your starting troops are crap and you need an awake SC pretender, and water/earth are very good parths for combatants. Second, you have a national summon, Beregina, 3W1E; they have 3W1E2N and can craft most things your national mages cannot.
And yes, you have 1E on your national mages, but thats not enough to cast gnome lore or forge boots of earth.
Gamayun is a rather crappy summon if you ask me. A2S2 - why would you want that? Your national mages can do same things.

Wrana · #9 February 3rd, 2009, 11:16 AM

Lady Midday I think good even in base game. And being cheap they are even better.
To Kuritza: thanks for reminding about Bereginya. Gamayun, though, I think quite useful - national mages can't fly!

Kuritza · #10 February 3rd, 2009, 11:50 AM

Well, yes... but they can cloud trapeze, and they are recruitable everywhere.

So while useful and very, VERY thematic - devs really outshined themselves here - I didnt even think about the three sacred birds as possible summons of new Faith, and I sort of live in Bogarus

- Gamayun is overpriced for what it does. Were it worth 10 astral... or maybe were it A3... Or both...