Greek Army TO&E and OOB errors

[hoplitis]

Originally Posted by zaphod72

I'm trying... hard!
And as much as possible with official data.

Ευχαριστώ φίλε Οπλίτη (της �*χω αλλάξει τα φώτα της obat31 αλλά ακόμη �*χει δουλειά).

"I'm trying... hard!" Wrong attitude! . It is a hobby! Enjoy it & take it easy! It's better to take a longer path and ensure a better result, than rushing into it! Believe me, this way your effort will be better appreciated and the end result more useful! (As for me, you already have my for even attempting an OOB revision!)

Βαγγελης.

[DRG]

......and be aware that to be really taken seriously you don't make statements like this at the start......

There are quite a few errors in units and formations of the Greek army. I'm starting with the major units issues.

Greek army never had:
- M4A3 Sherman tanks (only the M32A1 ARV variant)
- M20 and V150 armored wheeled vehicles

then just a few days later report this......

Transfers of major conventional weapons: sorted by supplier. Deals with deliveries or orders made for year range 1950 to 2007


UK
(20) M-4 Sherman Tank (1949) 1950-1951 (20) Ex-UK
USA
(20) M-20 Reconnaissance veh (1949) 1950-1951 (20) Ex-US

In the case of the sherman the gun ( and Icon ) may be wrong in the OOB but those are not ARV's

Don

[zaphod72]

Dear Don,
Already mentioned that there are a few contradictions in the SIRPI list. For instance, the list states that the first M-48s delivered in 1959, but all the official sources of Greek origin agree that Greek army acquired the M-48 in 1963. Likewise, there is an error with the M-47 year of arrival (the correct is 1957 and not 1954). Also, in the SIRPI list there is no mention of the M-48A2C from Germany that served with the Greek army.
I posted the list because it is the only one that gives a complete picture (but with some minor errors) of the Greek army equipment from 1950 to present days.
Anyway, SIRPI is one of my sources and, of course, not the only one.

[zaphod72]

A very interesting collection of hand-crafted models of vehicles and artillery used by the Greek Army in the "Museum of the Macedonian Struggle":

http://www.imma.edu.gr/imma/exhibiti.../exhibits.html
http://www.imma.edu.gr/imma/exhibiti...lou/index.html

[redcoat2]

Zaphod72,

the SITPRI Trade Register (http://armstrade.sipri.org/arms_trad...e_register.php) can be a useful source of information about international arms sales/transfers. However, I suspect that some of the information is not always 100% accurate – and I am sure that it is not comprehensive. Many arms sales/transfers do not make it onto the Register – for various reasons. It also does not always include foreign weapons made under licence – and the Greek arms industry produces a variety of such weapons (from LMGs to MBTs).

The Register could provide you with clues about foreign arms deliveries to Greece that you could cross-reference against your local sources – which could be more reliable.

[zaphod72]

BETA TESTING - BETA TESTING - BETA TESTING

This is the first version with minor changes (can be used with present Pick List) of the OOB31.
New units are marked with a (+) and updated with a (*).

INFO FOR NEW OOB
- Leopard 1A4(GR) and Μ-48Α5 were the first tanks using APFSDS 105mm rounds (DM23 and M735). In 1992-93 Greek army acquired M413/DM33 rounds and in 2003 the latest batch of M426/DM63.
- In 1964 an ATGW company sent to Cyprus (Cobra jeeps). So, Greek army uses AT missiles at least from that year.
- In 1957 formed the first motorized AT companies (one per Infantry Division) with 106mm M40 recoilless rifles installed on M38 jeeps.
- TOW launchers entered service in 1978, with BGM-71B missiles. In 1985 Greek army acquired the first M901A1 with Improved TOW (BGM-71C) from US reserves. Upgraded in 1993 (October) with TOW-2/BGM-71E missiles.
- The first SP Artillery system (M-52A1) entered service in 1958. I've left the M7 Priest as is (even if Greek army never had this SP howitzer), because the Pick List uses the SPA slot from 1946.
- Leonidas II (Greek version of Austrian 4K-7FA APC) uses new type of smoke grenade launchers (2x4 at the sides of the turret instead of 4 at the back of the turret in Leonidas I). Also a MG3 machine gun can be installed at the back to be operated by the passengers.
- Even if many BMP-1P kept their AT-4 launchers, all sources agree that none of them carries missiles. All AT-3 launchers removed from the other BMP-1s.
- During the civil war, Greek army used British made artillery (25pdr and 5.5 inches field howitzers and 3.7 inches mountain howitzers). By 1953 most of them went obsolete and replaced by US artillery pieces (M101, M114, M203) which started entering service from 1951.
- The first area SAM system in service with the Hellenic Air Force was the Nike-Hercules (acquired in 1960). In 1964 the Greek army acquires Hawk SAM. These went under major upgrades two times since then: in 1976 to I-Hawk version (MIM23B) and in 1996 to Phase III.
- Small Arms: Until the late 60s infantry units were equipped with M1 Garand rifles/carbines and BARs. In 1967 the Greek army acquires FN-FALs (rifles and LMGs) to be used only with SF units (Commandos, Paras and Marines) and some front line Mech Inf Regiments. All other infantry and National Guard units stuck with M1s until 1977. In that year starts the production of G3A3/4 rifles, HK11 LMGs and MG3 machine guns at the Hellenic Arms Industry (EBO) under HK licence. In September 1991 SF units start replacing their FN arms with M16A2 rifles, M4 carbines and M60 LMGs. Greek infantry will remain with 7.62mm rifles and machine guns for the following years, since the plan to acquire HK G36 has been canceled.
- The Greek navy uses two helicopters with anti-shipping role. The AB-212 (armed with four SS-12 missiles) and the S-70 'Aegean Hawk' (armed with four Hellfire missiles).
- Even though, the Greek air force acquired AGM-88 HARM missiles in 1994 to be used with F-16 Block 30, I've set the starting year at 1990 because of the Pick List.
- Other air-to-ground guided bombs and missiles that I've added in the new OOB, are Paveway, AGM-65G Maverick, Scalp EG and JDAM1000 (these will enter service by 2010).
- Mirage F1C served as interceptor and 2000EBG have also anti-shipping role.


SOURCES: Hellenic Air Force and Hellenic Army official sites, War, Tank and Air Force museums, SIPRI Arms Transfers Database, official army documents from Greek Civil War period, "History of the Hellenic Army 1821-1954" (Army History Directorate publication), Stratigiki and Ptisi magazines (personal collection from 1987), online Periscopio Publications (http://www.periscopio.gr), various publications for ELDYK (Greek forces in Cyprus) history, wargamer.gr, hellasarmy.gr

[hoplitis]

So what's next?
I mean are there going to be anymore additions or a "verification" phase of the proposed OOB?

Μπας και φτιάξουμε και κανενα σενάριο ε;! ή οχι ακόμα...

[zaphod72]

My friend Hoplitis,
This is not the final edition, because I am working now on new formations (still trying to keep the compatibility with present Pick Lists). This is a 'solo' work, so there might be some errors.