Gemgen alternative idea.

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by vfb

Well, my current income in Beyond (~turn 80) is about 21000 gold. I'd pay 5000 gold for 100 pearls a month.

I suspect you been doing some conquest as well.
It probably works more against the turtle and clam hoard strategy.

[Sombre]

I don't think people were claiming rushing is creative. It is inarguably more interactive than clamming though.

Not sure why I'm responding really, since I think the reduction of the game to 'rush or genhoard or be la ermor or rlyeh' is silly.

[Kuritza]

Not sure why I'm responding after being called silly, but I'd still love to think whats wrong with this generalisation.

In my experience, you must conquer your neighbours and genhoard. At the moment, you probably need both in order to win. Remove generators, and conquest will be your only way to gain resources.

Claiming that something is 'inarguable' is also quite... arguable. You have to be creative to start clamming and bloodstoning with a race that has no water and blood, at least assuming that making one generator per turn with your god is not 'hoarding'.

But... really, aren't conquest, genhoarding and massed tartarians not THE ways to dominate the endgame? Enlighten me please.

[Sombre]

I'm not calling you silly, I'm calling the reduction of the game in that way silly. I also invite you to think about what's wrong with it, since you offered.

People have won numerous games without gem generators. Obviously they haven't won without conquering territory. But you mentioned 'rushing', which I responded to. Conquering and rushing are pretty different terms in dom3, as I'm sure you realise.

If you want to show that it's not inarguable, by all means argue against it. I said nothing about creativity. I said rushing is more interactive than genhoarding. Rushing requires meaningful interaction with at least one other player, by definition. Genhoarding could involve trading for something from someone, so there's that I guess? It isn't really comparable in terms of interaction. And if by rushing you simply mean conquest, then the level of interaction there is WAAAAY higher.

Conquest, genhoarding and tartarians aren't comparable concepts. Conquest is absolutely essential to dom3 and encompasses a huge variety of strategies. Genhoarding and Tartarian massing are far more specific. You can win without doing either.

[Kuritza]

Ok, by 'rushing' I didnt mean a classic zergling-rush. I meant a constant, fast-paced conquest. And, of course, while conquest and hoarding arent exactly comparable, they are still two different ways of getting stronger.

Its like saying that building new bases and researching new technologies arent comparable... But in fact, they are. Research/expansion/rush, three basic paths in RTS.

And... Competitive games which dragged all the way to 80+ turn were won without generators? I find it rather hard to believe, sorry. Unless it was, say, Ermor/Rlyeh, of course.

Or maybe it was a blitzkrieg, where one clearly dominant player crushed his opposition one by one, and they couldnt unite against him until it was too late? Then it wasnt a competitive game, sorry. I've seen one such game; I was in quite a strong position, but SUDDENLY I found out that leading player who already conquered ~half the map is supported by everyone. Instead of attacking the would-be winner, his sattelites were attacking his opposition... but thats another story.
What I want to say is that stopping such a dominant nation is rather hard even now, when you can genhoard. Without genhoarding, it will become futile.
Of course, that will also shorten games and reduce the MM, which is kinda what many players want. I just hope that it wont become a new standard, because I enjoy MM and complicated situations. When I'll want to play with just my national troops and low-level combat evocations , I'll play... well, warcraft.

[Micah]

Fantomen - Upkeep can be circumvented if you're willing to alchemize your piles of gems for any essential gold purchases and rely on commanders and 0 upkeep summons that won't desert. You'll go more and more negative each turn you get more clams, but it won't matter...obviously this would be more of an end-game tactic, but it doesn't solve the problem.

That much upkeep is also bad for the "natural" clamming nations, since the earlier in the game it is the more painful the upkeep is.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Micah

Fantomen - Upkeep can be circumvented if you're willing to alchemize your piles of gems for any essential gold purchases and rely on commanders and 0 upkeep summons that won't desert. You'll go more and more negative each turn you get more clams, but it won't matter...obviously this would be more of an end-game tactic, but it doesn't solve the problem.

That much upkeep is also bad for the "natural" clamming nations, since the earlier in the game it is the more painful the upkeep is.

Sacred non-commander units don't desert either, so you get to keep them too if you get into negative income. Even regular units don't seem to desert all that quickly.

[Ironhawk]

I think this is a great idea. It directly addresses two major problems with hoarding:

1) Clams are not detectable - fixed

2) Clams could never be destroyed (they would just be moved by lab to a diffent location) - fixed

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Ironhawk

I think this is a great idea. It directly addresses two major problems with hoarding:

1) Clams are not detectable - fixed

2) Clams could never be destroyed (they would just be moved by lab to a diffent location) - fixed

Actually, clams can be destroyed... Armageddon destroys them together with their holders. Lost tons of clams that way recently.

[Ironhawk]

Yeah but that was basically the only way you could get at them. Now, you can seige/storm the fort where your enemies clams are and wipe them out. Additionally, making them fragile means they are vulnerable to regular remotes: seeking arrow, flames from afar, disease, etc.

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Actually, clams can be destroyed... Armageddon destroys them together with their holders. Lost tons of clams that way recently.