Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Alpine Joe]

Qm has done a great job in this mod of making some nations stronger, but there is a lot of work yet to be done on nation balance. I would like to see a balance mod where no nations are clearly much more powerful than others. Ideally, nations like niefelheim, hinnom, mictlan, etc would actually be on par with other nations in terms of strength, rather than clearly ahead. Thus, I'd like to jumpstart a discussion of nation balance by proposing my own list of changes that I feel would do more than provide small power buffs to weak nations, but rather give them a substantial boost putting them on par with the powerhouse nations.
thus here is my list. i welcome disagreement/discussion, and i acknowledge i am not the most experienced of players. Nevertheless, I think some discussion of nation balance is warranted, especially with the removal of gem gens.

EA arcoscephale:
1. Mage engineers recruitable everywhere
2. Oreiads get A3E1N2 default with the extra 110 percent random
3. lower encumbrance on icarids

EA ermor:
1. Augurs get a point in D magic
2. Augur elders get an extra 100 percent F/D/A/S random

EA Ulm:
1. 50 percent random on smiths increased to 100 percent
2. Archers restored to vanilla stats
3. Antlered shamans increased to N3

Marverni:
1. Druids reduced to 300, W random option removed, leaving randoms only S/E/N
2. Axe wielding infantry +1 strength

Sauromatia:
As is

Tien'chi:
1. Master of elements recruitable everywhere
2. Reduce resource cost on archers

Mictlan:
As is

EA Abysia:
1. Warlock and Warlock apprentice recruitable outside of capital
2. Extra point of earth on Annointed of Rhuax
3. Demonbred given leadership 40/Undead leadership 40

EA Caelum:
As is

EA C'tis:
1. extra point of N on Sauromancers, research malus 1 to compensate
2. Serpent dancer cost reduced by 5

EA Pangaea
1. Centaur warrior price reduced by 5
2. Pan reduced to 300
3. Maenad generation rate reduced

EA Agartha
1. Extra E/Element random on Oracles
2. Earth readers 10 Percent chance of extra E random
3. heat 2 preference

EA tir'na'nog
1. Extra point of E on Tuatha sorc and Ri
2. Sidhe warrior price reduced by 3

Fomoria
As is

EA vanheim
1. Dwarven smiths recruitable everywhere
2. Sacred boar cost reduced by 10

EA Hellheim
1. Svartalfs restored to recruit anywhere

Niefelheim
As is

Kailasa
1. Yaksha recruitable everywhere
2. Bandar longbows reduced to 18 gold

Yomi
1. MR on demon troops increased by 2
2. Reduce encumbrance on Dai oni armor by 2
3. Old age removed from sorcerer

Hinnom
As is

Atlantis
1. MR on all "Deep" troops increased to 10

R'lyeh
As is

EA Oceania
I have no idea where to go with this one.....

Lanka:
As is

Feedback on this list? Unless people really hate talking about this, I'll post some suggestions for other ages later. Once again, i only intent this as a starting point for a discussion of nation balance, not as some kind of definitive list.

[Alpine Joe]

Well I tried to avoid making any nation's strongest, iconic mage recruitable everywhere, except kailasa, and maybe that was a bad idea. I can't see anything wrong with making warlock apprentices at least recruitable everywhere, and mage engineers almost never get used otherwise. Svartalfs and Dwarven smiths aren't the iconic mage for either of their nations, IMO.

I don't understand the problem with extra magic paths. They make nations more interesting by adding more options. In EA especially, the more human nations are magically equivalent or weaker than their non-human counterparts, who often come with impressive physical stats, immunities, and other powers. Ermor's frail, old elders should be better at magic than Niefelheim's giants.

Caveat: I am not much of a thematic person, preferring balance over staying true to the spirit. I understand QM's reasons for not touching certain things, and perhaps there should be a separate nation balance mod. However since the thread is for "complete balance," I think this is an appropriate place to have the conversation.

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by Alpine Joe

Well I tried to avoid making any nation's strongest, iconic mage recruitable everywhere, except kailasa, and maybe that was a bad idea.

That's not really true for EA T'ien Chi eihter. Sure, they have captial only celestial masters, but these are not the best mages you want to recruit. They fly and are expensive, so being capital only is not much of a drawback. If you allow masters of the elements to be recruited everywhere, there's simply no reason to recruit any mage except masters of the 5 elements and celestial masters in the capital, thereby removing 2 units from the game, which is counter to CBM purpose.
Furthermore, I fail to see how this strengthens T'ien Chi. I'm also not sure they need boosting. The cost reduction on archers would let them mass more archers, but would it really help? To me, EA TC is a bless nation. Warriors of the 5 elements will make mincemeat of most other troops but are capital only, so later on, you switch to TC's sacred national summons. The biggest problems EA TC may face early on is Hinnom (fire resistant giants with good mr) or hyper aggressive Mictlan eagle warriors flying above your archers. Where T'ien Chi is weak is late game: They have weak astral and death mages, so must make up by having a good early/mid-game so they can empower or summon better mages. The boosts you propose don't help early on and don't help late-game. Masters of the 5 elements would make T'ien Chi a nation with awesome battlefield magic without need for communions, but I'm not sure they need an armada of wizards to back them in late game.

[Tollund]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

If you allow masters of the elements to be recruited everywhere, there's simply no reason to recruit any mage except masters of the 5 elements and celestial masters in the capital, thereby removing 2 units from the game, which is counter to CBM purpose.

There are many, many units that are not recruited and could effectively be removed from the game. Forcing people to use them doesn't exactly make the game better. Unless there's a compelling balance reason to make a unit capital only it should probably be recruitable everywhere. Otherwise you run into the actual thematic problem that no national unit should be recruitable from anywhere that is not the capital (or initial territory) since that's the only place that those troops would be trained.

[Alpine Joe]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

That's not really true for EA T'ien Chi eihter. Sure, they have captial only celestial masters, but these are not the best mages you want to recruit. They fly and are expensive, so being capital only is not much of a drawback. If you allow masters of the elements to be recruited everywhere, there's simply no reason to recruit any mage except masters of the 5 elements and celestial masters in the capital, thereby removing 2 units from the game, which is counter to CBM purpose.
Furthermore, I fail to see how this strengthens T'ien Chi. I'm also not sure they need boosting. The cost reduction on archers would let them mass more archers, but would it really help? To me, EA TC is a bless nation. Warriors of the 5 elements will make mincemeat of most other troops but are capital only, so later on, you switch to TC's sacred national summons. The biggest problems EA TC may face early on is Hinnom (fire resistant giants with good mr) or hyper aggressive Mictlan eagle warriors flying above your archers. Where T'ien Chi is weak is late game: They have weak astral and death mages, so must make up by having a good early/mid-game so they can empower or summon better mages. The boosts you propose don't help early on and don't help late-game. Masters of the 5 elements would make T'ien Chi a nation with awesome battlefield magic without need for communions, but I'm not sure they need an armada of wizards to back them in late game.

I don't really think EA tienchi is a bless nation...... your sacreds are weak against archers and even with F9W9 they lose to most other similarly blessed sacreds (hellheim, mictlan, lanka, Hinnom, Kailasa, ). They have terrible HP in the off-season as well, where they have trouble even with regular infantry.

I also don't really understand your point about masters of the 5 elements...they are too good, but you never use them? They completely eliminate the use of masters of the way? Well, when was the last time you used the F1D1 LA c'tis cap only mage, or the equivalent one for LA agartha? nonmage commanders almost never get recruited as is, losing a lot of thematic commanders simply for not being optimal.

[Belac]

One thing EA Agartha could use, for balance, I think, is easier research. Its mages get 4 and 7 RP for 120 and 350GP (sacred), which is pretty lousy overall, especially for early era.

[kianduatha]

My first comment seems like a lot of those changes are simply counter to the style of CBM as a whole--QM doesn't like changing mage paths.

Regarding Abysia...at most you would want to make Warlock Apprentices recruit anywhere, and that changes the whole feel of the nation. Furthermore, you would also have to change at least MA Abysia with the same change. It for sure would make them more powerful by a substantial margin, but it also makes them a full-on blood nation.

It would make sense to give Agartha Heat-1 or 2, seeming as everyone takes it anyways, and it would benefit them to have some extra design points.

In general the 'recruit anywhere' suggestions are thematic minefields. Just look at the MA Man warden fallout(I for the record approve of that change, but many others didn't).

[Festin]

And this is exactly why Jomon's Sohei should not be made recruitable anywhere. Oh, please no.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Festin

And this is exactly why Jomon's Sohei should not be made recruitable anywhere. Oh, please no.

???

Why should they be cap only? Sohei were warriors attached to *a* temple - something Jomon can build anywhere... There's no thematic problems here.

Further, in line with CBM's attempting to make as many options playable as possible, there is no way to make Sohei worth using that doesn't involve making them recruit everywhere. Its just not possible to justify wasting time on a bless for them when the aka-oni has better base stats and can be hired anywhere.

At least the Yamabushi has a reason to exist.

[Fantomen]

A very minor note: The mounted "soldier of the east" generated by celestial general lacks a hoof attack. It's not a big issue I know, but easy to fix so I think it should be adjusted in the next CBM.