MA Man in latest CBM

[Festin]

In CBM 1.6 MA Man was given a long-needed upgrade. Most notably, Wardens and Lord Wardens are recruitable anywhere, which makes decent bless a more reasonable choice, especially considering their mages are sacred too. Also, I noticed that Lord Wardens were given H1, and can now bless Wardens and self-bless (this is strangely not mentioned in CBM 1.6 features in related post). There were other improvements too, of course.

In short, what strategy can be used for the new and better MA Man?

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Festin

(this is strangely not mentioned in CBM 1.6 features in related post).

That is because it was intended (and advertised) in a previous version, but I had overlooked MA and only changed the LA version at that point.

[AreaOfEffect]

Its become another one of those E9N4 bless nations, which is actually quite disappointing and dull. The standard thug bless is optimal for your new army of stealthy thugs. Good luck.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect

Its become another one of those E9N4 bless nations, which is actually quite disappointing and dull. The standard thug bless is optimal for your new army of stealthy thugs. Good luck.

While I do agree the prevalence of e9n4 blesses is quite annoying, I think a really workable thug army of lord wardens would be quite a feat.

[Hoplosternum]

I wish the Knight of Avalon had been given a hoof attack. As it stands this capital only unit is all but redundent. The Knight has been improved with the general cavalry changes in CBM (all very welcome!) but the KoA just doesn't give a 20 gold boost over the knight. I know it's magic weapon and speed might make it an occasional neiche buy. But for a capital only unit with high resource and gold costs that is not sacred I don't think a hoof attack would be unbalancing. Especially as Man remains - even with your changes - neither one of the stronger, varied or flavoursome powers.

Hopefully you will consider it for 1.7?

[Calahan]

While the recruit anywhere Wardens and Lord Wardens are a welcome boost for MA Man, I don't think a bless strategy can be based on them. If nothing else than because the moment you have any decent number of Wardens massed, they become a pain to bless with only H1 priests. Main aspect of the Wardens now in CBM 1.6 is that the Lords are recruitable anywhere, as the Lord is a potentially decent thug chassis at a cheap cost (that may be worth a few X4 blesses). But he never got used before due to being cap only. (and so never got recruited ahead of cap mages)

Possibly a bigger boost is the increase to 25% on the second Crone random, as that increases the chance of getting those critical A4's (meaning you won't need an A4 pretender just for Air boosters). Would still like to see it at 50% though

And I second Hoplosternum's call on the Knights of Avalon. I brought this point up a few weeks ago on the IRC. The unit as it stands is pretty much pointless, as it will never really be recruited over the regular Knight. But if given a hoof attack, like most (all?) other heavy cavalry in CBM, then they suddenly become useful.

Hard to think these additional changes would overpower MA Man, since even with the recent CBM 1.6 changes, they still find themselves lurking at the bottom-end of the MA food-chain.


Edit: Just noticed the Knights of Avalon now cost 65 instead of 75 in CBM 1.6. So that increases their chances of being recruited. Still think they should have a hoof attack though

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by Calahan

While the recruit anywhere Wardens and Lord Wardens are a welcome boost for MA Man,

From a question of efficiency, perhaps, but it really hurts Man as a theme. The entire idea of having the Forest of Avalon, the witches of Avalon (who only become strong with the forest), and the wardens of the witches of Avalon (enchanted and possibly descendents of the Tuatha) straps a huge weight to its back and takes a running leap off the cliff labeled "generic nation that we need to boost" once the wardens are made recruitable everywhere rather than bound to the capital.

A.k.a. while I may understand the reasoning behind making them recruitable everywhere due to their performance in MP, I think it is a crying shame that the balance tweaking was done in such a theme destructive manner.

[Calahan]

Yes, it's a shame to go somewhat against the theme of MA Man by lessening the importance of 'Avalon' as a site and idea, but I'm not sure if there was much of a choice for the Wardens. The Lord Warden in particular.

Since there is probably little point having a national commander that would just never be recruited. Be it thematic, themed, part of a nation's soul, or whatever. And as long as the Lord Warden is up against Crones and Daughters of Avalon as a capital only unit, then it will never be seen in a MP game (at least not as part of any real plan or strategy).

The only other approach for the Lord Wardens to have a future is to make them the only capital only commander. Like they are for LA Man. But being able to recruit Daughters and Crones everywhere would probably be an even greater shift against the theme of MA Man, than doing it for the Wardens is. Not to mention boosting the power of MA Man considerably (and probably past an unwanted point).

So I think the change to the Wardens in CBM 1.6 was not only out of a desire to make MA Man more of a viable MP nation, but also to give the Wardens and Lords some genuine hope of being used. Since other attempts to improve MA Man via cheaper units, better mages etc, would have had no effect on the unused Warden problem.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen

A.k.a. while I may understand the reasoning behind making them recruitable everywhere due to their performance in MP, I think it is a crying shame that the balance tweaking was done in such a theme destructive manner.

I look at it this way: Mothers of Avalon are recruitable everywhere, and they are supposed to commonly have warden bodyguards. So, it seems like wardens should be at least as common as the mothers.

[Zeldor]

MA Man still sucks anyway:

QM: I think you also forgot to make Marverni sacreds non-cap