calling new modders

[Gandalf Parker]

IF you were to build a nation using only units and magic sites that are already in the game, what would it be?

This is mostly few modders or want-to-be modders. (mostly because its likely to tick off the old modders). This is yet another partially finished project which overlaps a present project of mine. I want to test more of a feel for what the AI does and doesnt do well.

What I mean to do is modify the More Nations mod
http://www.dom3minions.com/mods.htm
to try various built-nations and see how they do against the nations already in the game when the AI is running both. Id like to try nations built to force the AI to use specific strategies.

So Im thinking..
If you built a nation of mostly mages what would it be? Using Edi's database, or the Units list on the wiki, or Ballbarians icon views, or an All-Units game you can look thru the games units. Maybe try to fill in the needs with a scouting mage, a leader mage, a priest mage.

Or a Thug Nation? Can you create a nation with a scout thug, leader thug, mage thug, priest thug?

How about a stealth nation? An armored nation? A seduction nation? A turtle nation?

Even better (make it keepable after the test) is if you can use units that are generic or not in one of the games nations (such as, avoiding Abysias or Pangaeas units)

Also consider the nations magic sites (particularly if they grant units which would make them capital only units).

[chrispedersen]

A mage nation of city states, based on the metal orders, would be fairly easy.

Or one based on breeding for magical talent - where magicians ruled and enchantresses etc were the consorts.

All the untalented were the troops...

[Gandalf Parker]

Here is an example from the More Nations mod
#selectnation 80
#era 1
#name "Utherz"
#color .8 .35 .61
#startcom 34 - basic commander
#startunittype1 17 - basic archer
#startunittype2 28 - light infantry
#startunitnbrs1 20 - heavy cavalry
#startunitnbrs2 20 - heavy cavalry
#startscout 426 - basic scout
#addrecunit 28 - light infantry
#addrecunit 38 - heavy infantry
#addrecunit 20 - heavy cavalry
#addrecunit 17 - basic archer
#addrecunit 217 - flagellant
#addreccom 426 - basic scout
#addreccom 34 - basic commander
#addreccom 240 - basic priest
#addreccom 105 - druid
#defcom1 34 - basic commander
#defcom2 105 - druid
#defunit1 17 - basic archer
#defunit2 28 - light infantry
#defunit1b 38 - heavy infantry
#defunit2b 20 - heavy cavalry
#defmult1 20 - heavy cavalry
#hero1 559 - Sleeper
#hero2 378 - Hero
#hero3 381 - heroine
#hero4 1111 - Arch Bishop of the Sacred Shroud
#hero5 1073 - Maker of the Maze
#hero6 190 - Mound King
#multihero1 428
#multihero2 391
#startsite "Assassins Guild"
#startsite "Forest of a Thousand Streams" w1d1 & 363 Enchantress
#startsite "Ebony Tower" s1d3 & 339 sorcerer
#startsite "Castle Arcanum" f1e1 & 312 wizard 875 warrior mage
#end
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all mages can only be recruited at the main castle
only the Druid can be recruited from secondary castles
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assassins can only be recruited from capital (thats good)

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

A mage nation of city states, based on the metal orders, would be fairly easy.

Or one based on breeding for magical talent - where magicians ruled and enchantresses etc were the consorts.

All the untalented were the troops...

Yes but to FORCE the AI to use Mages instead of troops would require not giving a "bunch of troops" option in the nation. Maybe just those units that go away after one fight? Or having only mages be available to secondary castles with troops only available at the capital.

[Rysan Marquise]

This is what I am thinking of as a sort of mage-focused nation with no certain magic but ridiculous research power. Clearly not done, but I am wondering about initial reaction. The idea is to not give any good troops, only horrible meatshields(that can be buffed), a couple elite units, a viable unit to command, and high research mages that you can recruit everywhere.

Strange House in the Mist (can enter to summon horrors)
Slave Fields (Can recruit Thrall here)


190-Gray Knight
191-Gray Lord
1022-Thrall
92-Sage
479-Lore Master

[Gandalf Parker]

I do like it.

I especially like the thrall site. If you leave thrall off the recruitment list then it limits the thralls only to the capital. So it will only help for early expansion.

[Foodstamp]

A Mount Olympus mod using the pretender titans and the cyclops would be pretty cool for a thug nation.

[pyg]

Quite a while ago I made a little mod of randomly created nations using just independent units in order to make weaker nations to play against the AI. The nations themselves are not all playable due to the random combinations. Also they only have 2-3 different magic paths and severe capital only restrictions. In the end it's not nearly as fun as playing the real nations but a lot harder, and I learned quite a bit in the struggle. I never posted it before because I doubted (and still do) that there would be any interest. Anyway, it sounds sort of like what Gandalf is talking about so here it is. It's called the Lost Tribes and the backstory is these groups of independents have allied themselves against these invading 'Pretenders'. It's done with DMG.

[Gandalf Parker]

Thanks Pyg
I will take a look at it. Maybe if I run a few games with --comptrn I can see what ones do well and figure out why they are doing well.

I do have a program that randomizes AI's that way. I can run it to get completely new AIs with totally random units and sites. I thought about adding it to the "Chaos Games" on my server along with another script for more randomization in the way it generates maps. Just for the SURPRISE! effect.

[Squirrelloid]

Curious, why are assassins being cap-only a good thing? That just means they *never* get hired (because cap-only mages are *always* a better buy).

As someone who wants most units in a nation to see play, i find the idea of more than 1-2 cap only commanders (of about equal quality) and/or more than 1 cap-only troop type to be abhorrent. It just means the player will choose the best of them (and there is almost always a clear best or at worst a 'tie' for best) and the others will never see play.

Even worse for cap-only non-mage commanders, as a mage is generally a better buy anyway, even without a cap-only mage it'll often only rarely see play because its just not worth the opportunity cost since you have all the infrastructure to build mages in your capital.

EA Ermor is a case in point. Sure, your H3 (and an H2...) are cap-only, while your mages aren't. But you'll hire maybe 2-3 H3s over the course of the game unless you're really pushing a sacred strat (and even then, you can get H1 mages, which is sufficient for most purposes...), and you'll never touch the H2 guy. And that's an H3 *priest*. Cap-only assassin? Be a miracle if it ever sees play, even with no other cap-only commanders.

I don't care how thematic a particular restriction seems. A units theme is irrelevant, and not effectively part of the nation's theme, if the unit never sees play.

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Any nation using non-national troops is probably going to be underpowered because, overall, existing national troops are better than indies. (Some exceptions exist, but those nations are generally perceived as weak for whatever reason, or those troops rarely if ever see play).

Now, an interesting and honestly pretty easy way to build a new nation might be as follows.

1 - no troop choices at all
2 - Only mage commanders
3 - large gem income
4 - some Conj 0 national spells (you can steal from existing national spells if you want, or worst case scenario make copies of some spells with the only change being they're Conj 0 - both options avoid making new units)

Now, starting troops might be interesting, although giving them a handful of what would otherwise be summoned troops from Conj 0 could work.

The idea is a nation that runs armies of summons. Unlike LA Ermor, there's no free troops, so not overpowered, and you still want gold to hire your mages, so you can't totally trash your scales.

Example: Azgeth, City of Death

As the Ermorian bureaucracy collapsed it became increasingly easy for cities to strike out for independence. Azgeth, far from the center of the empire at Eldredgate, came under the control of a powerful cabal of necromancers and conjurers. The common people became slaves toiling for the benefit of their masters, and the army disbanded. In its stead, undead and demons filled the ranks of the army. To maintain its independence, Azgeth formed ties with the Onyx Amazon tribes nearby, who shared a similar appreciation of death magic, and through their rituals managed to make liaison with the hidden kingdom of Elludia.

Every child is tested before the age of five for signs of intelligence and magical aptitude. Those that are deemed worthy are remanded to the various places of magical learning to hone their craft at the feet of the masters.

Commanders:
#629 Stalker - assassin
#356 Onyx Priestess - H2 + 10%D + 10%E
#94 Conjurer - D1B1
#355 Onyx Sorceress - E1D1 +10%D
#310 Necromancer - D2
#95 Circle Master* - D2B2
#630 Elludian Moon Mage* - S2D1 +100% ESDB

Commanders marked with a * are capital only.

Heroes:
Multihero: demilich (as enchant spell Lichcraft)
Graxx, C'tissian Exile - copy of #161 Sauromancer
Ildach, Fallen Oracle - copy of #1581 Risen Oracle pretender, possibly with extra paths beyond base (might be too much work for these purposes)
The Undying King - Copy of #872 Ghost King with E3D3

Sites
The Crypt Underneath: 3d, Conj 20%
Temple of Darkness: 1d, summon: Shadow, Shade
Black Tower: 3d, Circle Master
Elludian Academy: 2s2d, Elludian Moon Mage (new site, 'Hidden Kingdom of Elludia didn't seem thematically appropriate, otherwise it would work. It also gives 3s1d instead of 2s2d, but that might be acceptable)

Total: 8d2s, 2 cap-only mages, Conj 20% site

(replace Crypt Underneath with Well of Darkness if you think the Conj site is overpowered, but I'm trying to throw them something because their top mages are clearly inferior to existing top-tier national mages, and their hire anywhere are generally inferior to other nations - basically, they could use the help).

National Spells:
Recommend Spirit Mastery and Reanimation be copied and those copies made nationals at Conj 0 and Ench 0 respectively. Possibly also Summon Shades.

Notes:
-The national priest(ess) should be able to reanimate, if at all possible.
-Pretender list (short, probably include more): PoD, Moloch, Lord of the Gates, Lich, Lich (female), Master Lich, Dracolich, Lord of Rebirth, Lord of the Night, Oracle, Fountain of Blood, Ghost King, Freak Lord, Arch Mage, Crone, Frost Father, Great Sage, Master Druid, Great Enchantress, Master Alchemist, Vampire Queen,

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A nature oriented nation also immediately suggests itself (Enchanters and Enchantresses, Bloodvine Druids, etc... with things like Sloth of Bears and Pack of Wolves as nationals).