Exploit question

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Baalz

Kuritza - if you can't get a game with certain settings/mods/rules (including plain vanilla) to start then it's pretty self evident that there aren't many people who want to play that way. Unfortunately this community is fairly small so you either have to roll with what most people are playing or beat the bushes to drum up some interest for what you want to play. Complaining that nobody wants to play the way you do is a bit silly. Maybe some other settings might be more to your liking while also appealing to more players: have you considered more common magic sites, easy research or money/resource multiples to "increase your options"? A game like this (Utopia) is just starting now...

It still boils down to ZEEEEEEEEEEERGGGGG!!!!! gameplay.

Why? Because there is no alternate source of income. If you are denied land, you die, as simple as that. If somebody invested heavily in early ZEEEEEERGGG!!! and got noobish neighbours, and you got stuck with some Pangaea gaeaey who turtled in his unbreakable castles with endless maenads, you lose automatically.
In Setsumi I struggle ONLY because I have gemgens. Were it down to whoever has more units, HECK, there wouldnt be even a fraction of a chance against LA Ermor who controls half the map.

Who cares if magic sites are common, if national troops remain important throughout the whole game, and your national troops suck? Bandar Log without clams against Shinuyama! Ha ha, Machaka against double-bless Mictlan! Eriu against MA Vanheim! MA Oceania against anything! All strategies revolve against just one thing - imba fast expansion. There is just no alternate route.

I dont complain that nobody wants to play the way I prefer; I complain that some guys decided for everyone that from now on this game will not be Dominions I have come to like. They made decision for me. And since CBM was already popular, of course most players (who would be rather indiffirent to the topic otherwise) went with the flow.
But actually, I dont mind quitting. More free time is always a good thing. I just wanted to say this before I leave - it was a crappy idea to decide how EVERYONE will play.

P.S.

By the way, regarding Utopia - Dimaz can confirm, I was laughing like MAD at that very game. 250% gold, 250% resources, no gemgens, Ashdod banned. Lots of gold and heaps of resources, can I say Dai Oni hacking to bits everything while Bakemono mages find more or less all sites possible?

[Baalz]

Slow day today, guess I'll respond even though we're falling into troll country.

Originally Posted by Kuritza

It still boils down to ZEEEEEEEEEEERGGGGG!!!!! gameplay.

...

Who cares if magic sites are common, if national troops remain important throughout the whole game, and your national troops suck? Bandar Log without clams against Shinuyama! Ha ha, Machaka against double-bless Mictlan! Eriu against MA Vanheim! MA Oceania against anything! All strategies revolve against just one thing - imba fast expansion. There is just no alternate route.

That's just ridiculously false. Obviously you're constrained throughout the game as to what you can do, but your province count is only one factor. Who is in a stronger position when an earlyish war starts? The guy who:
Went with a blistering initial expansion and has the most provinces?
or the guy who...
Went with strong scales and a moderate expansion and has the most gold income?
or the guy who...
Invested in castles instead of expansion and has 3 times as many forts?
or the guy who...
Invested in research rather than expansion?
or the guy who...
Went with early site searching and has the most gems?
or the guy who...
invested in a heavy bless for thugs that didn't help much with initial expansion but are now coming into their own?
etc. etc.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing....that it's not fair to have to use monkeys when playing Bandar Log as the game progresses? If that's so objectionable don't play Bandar Log, and you might even change your mind if somebody shows you some stuff you hadn't considered.

Originally Posted by Kuritza

But actually, I dont mind quitting. More free time is always a good thing. I just wanted to say this before I leave - it was a crappy idea to decide how EVERYONE will play.

Again, I don't quite follow your logic. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing with or without any mods you want other than finding similar minded people to play with. Nobody decided what EVERYONE will play...other than EVERYONE.

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually the point is still worth making and clearly defining who and how many are more for the joy of variety than the idea of everyone playing one way. Earlier I was accused of almost vigilante attacks against cbm which rather surprised me. Its not like I dive into every game-start thread to preach against cbm. I tend to show up when someone (actually mostly just one or two people) show up and tell the game op that all mp games use cbm or should use cbm. They do this even when they proclaim at the same time that they dont plan to play in that game. Particularly irritating when its games involving some variant other than last-one-standing where balance does not necessarily win over game play.

The fact that some of the generally recognized trend-setters in the community are so outspoken against the fostering of such an impression might help to go far in allowing some more variant games where mod selection, if left up for discussion at all, will fall into the realm of please and thankyou.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

The fact that some of the generally recognized trend-setters in the community are so outspoken against the fostering of such an impression might help to go far in allowing some more variant games where mod selection, if left up for discussion at all, will fall into the realm of please and thankyou.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm really struggling to understand what you meant by this.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Baalz

That's just ridiculously false. Obviously you're constrained throughout the game as to what you can do, but your province count is only one factor. Who is in a stronger position when an earlyish war starts? The guy who:
Went with a blistering initial expansion and has the most provinces?
or the guy who...
Went with strong scales and a moderate expansion and has the most gold income?
or the guy who...
Invested in castles instead of expansion and has 3 times as many forts?
or the guy who...
Invested in research rather than expansion?
or the guy who...
Went with early site searching and has the most gems?
or the guy who...
invested in a heavy bless for thugs that didn't help much with initial expansion but are now coming into their own?

Without gemgens, the guy who has conquered the most provinces, as long as he also researched and found magic sites. As simple as that.

Originally Posted by Baalz

I'm not even sure what you're arguing....that it's not fair to have to use monkeys when playing Bandar Log as the game progresses? If that's so objectionable don't play Bandar Log, and you might even change your mind if somebody shows you some stuff you hadn't considered.

Oh no, he won't. Having to rely on weak troops when your opponent has strong troops is bad, and so far nobody managed to make it work.

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Again, I don't quite follow your logic. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing with or without any mods you want other than finding similar minded people to play with. Nobody decided what EVERYONE will play...other than EVERYONE.

That's just ridiculously false. When somebody tried to start a non-CBM 1.6 mod, people came and told him that he shouldnt. It was like a holy war against heresy.
Such crusading obviously worked, so its impossible to find a game with gemgens now. CBM was promoted until EVERYONE believed that nobody should play without it. It doesnt necessarily mean its true.
And then it changed the game in such a dramatic way.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Without gemgens, the guy who has conquered the most provinces, as long as he also researched and found magic sites. As simple as that.

And with gemgens, it's exactly the same, with the caveat that the underwater races don't need the same number of provinces because they are harder to attack. Having more provinces with gem generators simply means that I'm going to be making more gemgens than you. The game breaks utterly when one can leverage incomes of hundreds of gems per turn.

Oh no, he won't. Having to rely on weak troops when your opponent has strong troops is bad, and so far nobody managed to make it work.

Really? Nobody has ever managed it? Nobody has ever won while playing C'Tis? Caelum? Jotunheim? Any of the majority of the nations who have average quality troops?

Originally Posted by Kuritza

That's just ridiculously false. When somebody tried to start a non-CBM 1.6 mod, people came and told him that he shouldnt. It was like a holy war against heresy.

No, people told him that they weren't interested in playing a game with gem generators. Look, I'm happy to play in one or two games a year where generators decide the outcome, just as long as I get to play R'lyeh, C'Tis or Bandar log in each case. Because that essentially means that if I can convince my neighbours to act as a buffer between hostile nations and myself
for just long enough, then I'm going to win the game by forging clams.

Such crusading obviously worked, so its impossible to find a game with gemgens now.

You could start your own games you know. But then you'd probably rather claim that you're being oppressed because you can't find people to play against who want to use your particular favourite set of rules. And is it really crusading when the arguments have been going on for six straight years?

CBM was promoted until EVERYONE believed that nobody should play without it. It doesnt necessarily mean its true.
And then it changed the game in such a dramatic way.

Yes. It changed the game in a dramatic way for the better. People want to play with it both because the balance between nations is better and because it removes a huge amount of mandatory micromanagement from the late game.

Would you really choose to play a middle age game as Marignon with gemgens enabled? In a game where C'Tis, Oceania, R'lyeh and Bandar Log are your opponents? After all, you have better troops than all of them, and if you really prefer the strategic game with gemgens you should be happy to play any nation in such an environment.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

I dont complain that nobody wants to play the way I prefer; I complain that some guys decided for everyone that from now on this game will not be Dominions I have come to like. They made decision for me. And since CBM was already popular, of course most players (who would be rather indiffirent to the topic otherwise) went with the flow.
But actually, I dont mind quitting. More free time is always a good thing. I just wanted to say this before I leave - it was a crappy idea to decide how EVERYONE will play.

This makes no more sense now than it did the first 4 times you said it. How is one person dictating how everyone else will play? Please explain it to me, step by step. Without hysterics if possible. Apparently I just don't get it, because I've always thought if you didn't want to use CBM in a game you didn't have to. Has this changed without me knowing?

I just assumed people were making use of a completely optional mod provided free of charge by a member of this board because they wanted to.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Sombre

This makes no more sense now than it did the first 4 times you said it. How is one person dictating how everyone else will play? Please explain it to me, step by step. Without hysterics if possible. Apparently I just don't get it, because I've always thought if you didn't want to use CBM in a game you didn't have to. Has this changed without me knowing?

I just assumed people were making use of a completely optional mod provided free of charge by a member of this board because they wanted to.

Just read what Gandalf above you said. Perhaps you have better understanding than Rdonj.
CBM was actively promoted; people were directly told that no game should start without CBM, and vanilla games are terrible. Opinion has been forced, it worked.

[alansmithee]

Originally Posted by Sombre

This makes no more sense now than it did the first 4 times you said it. How is one person dictating how everyone else will play? Please explain it to me, step by step. Without hysterics if possible. Apparently I just don't get it, because I've always thought if you didn't want to use CBM in a game you didn't have to. Has this changed without me knowing?

I just assumed people were making use of a completely optional mod provided free of charge by a member of this board because they wanted to.

Well, I can see how CBM being in 95% of the games would make it seem that way. Like was said, if a new person comes to the forums and sees it being used so much, is told constantly that it's the standard, etc they might not have the opportunity to make any other choice. I don't know about it being just one person, but if a small but prominent group trumpets it, many of the bystanders will just go along. Many people are probably largely indifferent, but would set up games just because the pro-CBM contingent is more vocal/active/whatever than the anti-CBM group.

[Baalz]

So the most dangerous part is the part where clams have no effect? I don't even know what you're arguing, and apparently neither do you.

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Who cares if magic sites are common, if national troops remain important throughout the whole game, and your national troops suck? Bandar Log without clams against Shinuyama! Ha ha, Machaka against double-bless Mictlan! Eriu against MA Vanheim! MA Oceania against anything! All strategies revolve against just one thing - imba fast expansion. There is just no alternate route.

I came up with what I thought was a scenario to show that against some fairly fast expanders who would presumably out expand Bandar you could still be competitive. In a time frame where according to you lack of gem gens would cripple a nation who has "troops that suck". I specifically include every nation you mention here as a potential challenger, with the considerable advantage of knowing ahead of time exactly what I'm playing...and you think I stacked the odds in my favor? I'm answering the assertion that my suggested strategies "just don't work" and "nobody has ever [or can ever] win with Bandar", and I think it's a pretty big stretch to try and claim I contrived an artificially favorable scenario.

So, I call BS and ask for you (or anybody) to prove to me the ludicrous claim that Bandar Log "can NEVER win NEVER". Should be easy to do, no? All I've got is a bunch of theorycraft which doesn't really work.