Exploit question

[Kuritza]

Yes, they fall out here amongst other things. ))))) But at least they benefit from clams greatly.
Before the clam nerf, I saw them as an initially weak, potentially very dangerous race with many interesting possibilities. Some of them I have found in Baalz's guide, but sticking to them as your main strategy would be plain suicidal. With some luck, monkeys may even leave the ranks of chronic losers before its too late for them and clams are gone... alas, there's a small obstacle represented by Toran's Pythium in their way. )))))

Originally Posted by Sombre

Monkey nations can NEVER win because of their PD they can NEVER win NEVER.

Only Bandar Log. ))) Others have already scored some victories.

[Maerlande]

The problem is that people haven't realized that Ghanas are the go to troops for Bandar Log and all this theorizing just misses the point.

Bandar Log is a death nation. D9 white ones rule the world.

Or really crank up the action with B9D9. I've tested it against Agartha and Oceania and it rocks. Wins every time in single player. Although I did have to boost the AI's by setting independents to 9.

[Squirrelloid]

Someone really needs to conduct some statistics on the HoF.

In particular, I would imagine BL has not won a game almost entirely due to the impression that they are weak, and thus occur in significantly less games than nations which are perceived as strong. If we looked at how many games BL failed to win that it actually could win, I'd be willing to bet you could reject the claim that they have done significantly worse than expectation. Heck, even assuming they've been in *every MA game ever recorded* you probably still couldn't demonstrate they've done worse than expectation given the sample size.

I would take BL over Eriu any day, clams or no clams. Heck, I'd take BL over a number of nations in MA.

[Sombre]

I don't think it's really necessary to respond to a claim based on the HoF record of wins. It's anecdotal evidence at best.

[vfb]

Some people end games in a draw rather than slog through the extreme suck at the end, just to get their names on some list. The dom3 gui does not provide for effective management of large amounts of stuff, and it seems more like work than play once you get to a point where: you have to watch how much you are forging, in order not to fill up your lab; you have to track future gear for 3 or 4 thugs; you have to refill used gems on BF/BE-casting mages; you have to hire a Elludian Moon Mage in province #333, a Circle Master in province #421, and a Adept in #127 -- none of which provinces you've got a fort in anyway.

Back to the point: there was an MP game, "Blessing", that ended this way, and Kailasa was pretty much rocking the world with a large number of astral summons. Even though they had the Monkey PD.

[Quitti]

Kailasa is a very strong nation with clams included. Either way, 43 recorded games, assuming that 40% (optimistic) is MA is 17 games, MA has 23 nations, BL is one of them (4.3% of the nations are BL), they are percieved to be a weak nation by many (and they do require skill to play correctly) so let's say if one game averages bit more than half the nations of MA, and bit less than half of those include BL, that'd mean they are in about 6-7 of the games even listed in HoF.

23 nations. 43 games in which 7 BL has taken part of. They haven't won, when there are:
a) Ashdod
b) Pythium
c) Shinuyama
d) other strong nations, include your preference
in the game.

Now if I've learned anything about statistics, a sample size of that amount (7 games out of 20 viable to even consideration out of which 4.3% of the nations has never won) doesn't quarantee a good place to do assumptions upon. Especially in a game like dom3 where luck plays a part of the game.

The point with the 'BL not in HoF = it's bad nation' is moot. Thank you.

[Sombre]

Since quitti likes being deliberately obtuse, I have decided to be clear.

The totally useless PD of Bandar Log nations is why it has never registered a single win in multi-player. The mages change, and troops are, of course, replacable, but it has never registered a win. NOT ONCE. Why?

Because for 230 gold, or less, you can create an "invincible raiding force" that will defeat any Bandar Log PD below 20. After 20 the one Bandar monkey per point makes things mildly more difficult, but not much. You'll probably need 10-20 more gold in archers per point to route all the little monkeys which will route the bandar(you don't ever have to fight the bandar, you just have to make sure they route quickly). That's it. Raid the hell out of them. Easy.

For reference, this is the pathetic Ape PD per point:
Some Markata "soldiers"(Morale 7, Melee Damage 8, yes 8, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
Some Markata "archers"(Morale 7, Bow Damage 6, yes 6, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
1/2 Per Point(YES THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT) Atavi "Soldier"(Morale 8, Protection 1)
1/2 Per Point(YES, AGAIN, THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT!) Atavi "Archer"(Morale 8, Protection 1)

I'm just wondering if it's intentional that PD prevent Bandar Log, in any game, with any settings, from winning. Ever.

Also, if you will notice, KissBlade, the only dedicated Patala (a very similar nation to Bandar Log) Player, has built his entire nation around anti-raiding power. That is, he gets the Vampire Queen. This is the correct thing for KissBlade to do.

HOWEVER, IT IS PATHETIC THAT THE ENTIRE PRETENDER DESIGN BE DETERMINED BY WEAK PD.

[Baalz]

I thought you were being sarcastic Sombre, but it seems you really believe that? By that logic Eriu should win almost every game they're in because they can smear almost everybody's PD left and right with cheap recruit anywhere thugs. Bandar Log is a challenging nation, no argument, but its disadvantages are far from being unable to be overcome. I must say I'm getting a bit frustrated by the cursory dismissal of suggested strategies I have *ACTUALLY USED* to defeat people as being unrealistic. I'd be happy to duel somebody who thinks Bandar is unwinnable so it can be demonstrated to me what it is that I'm missing. Should be easy enough since they can't ever win, right? I shouldn't even be able to put up a real fight I'd assume.

My challenge:
2 players
Me: Bandar Log
You: your choice of C'tis, Agartha, Machaka, Abysia, Jotunheim, Arco, Ermor, Vanheim, Pangea, Ulm, Shinuyama, Marignon, Mictlan
Research: easy
# of provinces: 50, randomly generated
CBM 1.6
All other settings default

[Maerlande]

Monkey PD is fine. You just need to station 2 or 3 D9 blessed Apsaras in every province with an indy priest. Morale problems solved and you get that wonderful D9 banish spam.

[Foodstamp]

Some of you dewds should go back to IRC and just talk about people in private rather than bully them in public.