Magic Items under CBM

[PyroStock]

Keep in mind forging shield+sword takes 2 mages (or turns), which means if I forge a 2-handed I can use the other mage to help reach a next research level or forge a another 2-handed weapon or cast a ritual or patrol or... etc.

In my current game, I wouldn't have the magic diversity to forge many of the good shields (10D5F, 10E5F, 5A5E, 5F5E, 10S5B) if it weren't for my pretender so there is a price to pay for that good sword/shield combo. A 2-handed sword that only requires 1 path shouldn't be as good as the good sword/shield combos.

I also think it's better to err on the side of caution, particularly as death magic is already powerful.

[Sombre]

Well pikes certainly didn't rise to dominance as an anti cavalry tactic. They were superb against infantry too, you only have to look at history.

This is a pretty major diversion from the point of the thread though. Pikes under cbm have decent att bonus and dmg, which actually does make them pretty good anti cav weapons, which is nice. I think the magic pike should be high att and high damage, really. I can't see what else could be done with it.

[chrispedersen]

Hmmm.

Interesting points all around. One thing perhaps I could contribute to the discussion - it would take fractionally more material, more magic to make a two hand weapon than one. Perhaps it makes more sense that the bigger effects culd be shifted to 2 handed weapons.

I realize its a bit unsettling, and that it would be a huge change.

But can the brands be made 2handed?

So a fire sword - one handed.. a fire brand.. two handed.
a dustdagger one handed.. a shadow brand two handed..

This would change the nature of thugs, and change the balance of the game a lot ..

[vfb]

I think we need to talk about longbows here too. Specifically: AP? Or not?

[Squirrelloid]

Jarkko, I have a reproduction of a 16th century german dueling manual that describes the use of a 2-handed sword, probably a bastard sword, in a duel. I reject your notion that 2-handed weapons weren't used for duels.

The rodeleros were used when pikemen were already tied up with other pikemen, and thus unable to employ their pikes (eg, Battle of Ravenna 1512). They also seem to have been acceptable weapons against the Aztecs - of course, just about anything would have been. When facing an unengaged pike block they lost horribly, such as the Battle of Seminara (1495). All told, rodeleros lasted all of maybe 40 years, mostly against the Aztecs, before their use was discontinued. They seem to have decided one battle that involved pikes. Hardly the nemesis of pike formations.

[Sombre]

It would certainly have a lot more potential to do crazy stuff with 2 attacks, but that sounds pretty good to me. The weaknesses would be the same - no shield, not great weapon stats, expensive.

[Mardagg]

To me,that sounds more like a (great) idea for an unique item.
Imagine what you can do with this if you got a 4handed chassis...

Will be interesting what others think about that.

[Tolkien]

Jarkko: I won't address the Pikemen vs. Rodeleros argument (Squirrelloid addresses that very well), but your conclusion in regards to Roman Legions vs. Grecian/Macedonian Phalanxes is fairly erroneous.

The triumph of Roman Legions over Grecian/Macedonian Phalanxes had very little to do with their swords being far superior to pikes. The phalanx, by design, is a tactically inflexible formation: a massed, interlocking shield wall, the phalanx was designed for one purpose, and one purpose only: shock. In favorable terrain, a phalanx charge would put dozens of spear-tips on an opposing enemy soldier, and, with the right momentum, could easily sweep away the stoutest of enemies. This is the lesson of the Greco-Persian wars, and the conquest of Alexander the Great: that is, never, ever try to stand in the way of a fully formed, charging phalanx. Marathon, certainly, provides evidence of such, as well as countless battles involving the phalanx during it's heyday. The phalanx was also superior to other infantry (and cavalry) in a frontal clash, and can perform spectacularly on the defense. Thermopylae gives some indication of that.

The flaw, however, of the phalanx is not in it's ability to decimate opponents in a frontal assault (that is proven well enough), but in it's tactical inflexibility. Phalanxes are by their very nature inflexible, and incredibly difficult to maneuver. If attacked on the flank, a phalanx would be unable to respond, as turning a massive shield-wall-line on a dime would mean those on the very end would have to run miles. This is, of course, the lesson of Cannae (this was back when the Romans still used the Grecian phalanx system): with insufficient cavalry to defend the flanks, and the retreat of the Carthaginian center to string the battle-lines into an inward crescent, the phalanx loses it's linear cohesion, and is quickly surrounded and chopped to pieces.

Another fatal weakness of the phalanx was it's poor response to terrain. The phalanx, also by nature, requires good terrain to for it's full potential to shine. Nothing in the ancient (and pre-gunpowder) era was likely to resist a fully formed phalanx charging on even terrain with a slightly downhill slope: the frontal momentum would shatter the army. However, when terrain becomes uneven, hilly, swampy, whatever, the phalanx loses it's unit cohesion, and is unable to perform as promised.

So there we have the pros and the cons of the phalanx formation:
Pros:
Incredibly devastating shock factor, outstanding defensive capabilities, and well-nigh invincible frontal momentum
Cons:
Tactically inflexible/requires favorable terrain

Once you view a phalanx in such a light, everything else about the general composition of a Hellenistic army makes perfect sense. Light cavalry, peltasts (and other skirmishers), etc, were all designed to compensate for the phalanx's poor flexibility and vulnerability to flanking, and were the principle units used in terrain unsuitable for phalanxes, whereas other auxiliaries, such as elephants, etc., were there to bolster it's frontal shock in terrain where the phalanx was perfectly usable. The end result was a devastating army with good maneuverability and flexibility.

The Roman Legion system evolved separately from the Macedonian phalanx system (see above): the birth of the Roman Republic, set in hilly Italy, lacked access to sufficient auxiliaries to compensate for it during it's wars, the legion system began to evolve in a different direction. Thus, the manipular legion is born, and the phalanx abandoned all together, adopted from the Samnites in the Second Samnite Wars (after a series of Roman military disasters in the hills). The manipular legions were phalanxes-in-transition (it doesn't reach the cohortal legion system, with a pure emphasis on sword, shield, and javelin, but close), so to speak: the legionnaire were given javelins, the long spears were dramatically shortened, and the sword (a phalangite usually did carry a sword, although it was almost never used, and was fairly pitiful) was emphasized instead, along with the shield. In addition, smaller units were formed to give the legion far superior flexibility, and instead of massing along a giant shield wall, the legionnaires were spaced out. This gave the legion far superior performance then the phalanx in more difficult terrain, and is key to many of the Roman victories against the phalanx. The Battle of Pydna, for example (the only instance where a manipular legion defeats a Macedonian phalanx in a frontal clash) was won when the legion retreated over uneven ground, causing the phalanx to fall apart, and, thus, made it possible to halt their momentum and get up close. Originally, they attempted to hack off the spear-tips or dodge behind the spear wall, with little success. In addition, the Roman flanks were triumphant and were able to roll up around the sides of the phalanx, who promptly dropped their spears and resorted to sword/shield combat with the legionnaires (which ended horribly, owing to the Romans' larger and heavier shields and longer swords). The Battle of Cynoscephalae is another example of flexibility in action. Here, despite hilly, uneven ground, the Macedonians were able to form a phalanx and charge downhill, pushing the legions back on the Macedonian right. On the left, however, the Romans sent elephants crashing into the Macedonians (who were still in marching order and were unable to form a phalanx in time), which allowed them to roll up the Macedonian flank.

There are a number of other battles out there, which I can't quite remember the names of, but in all of them, Roman victories were not achieved by pitting the legion head-on against the phalanx, but by flanking maneuvers and superior use of terrain to maximize the potential of the legions and to minimize phalanx cohesion.

In short: the legion vs. phalanx argument is irrelevant (and beaten to death), as it really isn't about pike vs. sword/shield, at all. Really, it was largepikeshieldwallaverageshieldsandpitifulswords vs. decentspearsjavelinslargeshieldsandgoodswords.

Sorry, I felt the need to write a wall-o-text.

EDIT: To add to the pike vs. sword debate:

It really depends. In units, pikes are the way to go. Pike formations are all about putting as many spear-points on a single enemy soldier as possible, preventing them from touching you, and skewering them as you move forward. In single combat, swords are far more useful, as a pike is unwieldy and can easily be avoided (if there's only one). Not sure how that's going to pan out in game, but :shrugs:

What about halberds? :v:

[vfb]

Looks like:

lantern shield: which can provide pretty cool decoy targets,
charcoal shield: good versus Markata in melee, what more could you ask?
Gleaming gold: because you ran out of N gems, and it's only 6, and what else is F for,
Accursed: when you really don't want people to hit you.

[rdonj]

You missed his scutata volturnus.