Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by rdonj

By the way, sidhe thugs should never be going up against shishi without an ideal weapon at minimum, because they just plain have no need not to. They can't be jumped on by the shishi, but they can return the favor easily. So all these tests where the sidhe were using frost brands were really suboptimal. Something like a sword of sharpness would make much more sense for these tests.

Well, it's not that bad. The frost brand does 16 damage, the sword of sharpness 8. With the Sidhe Lords strength of 13 and the Shishi's protection of 20 that's an 11 point difference for the sword of sharpness and a 9 point difference for the frost brand. When you factor in the 3 point advantage in attack of the frost brand I think it comes out ahead. I also think there's a value in having the weapon with an AOE attack in case you unexpectedly need to deal with a crowd or just want to immediately move on to the next fight without having to change equipment. Having said that, a Fire Brand would beat both the Frost Brand and Sword of Sharpness handily - the only drawback being that with this build you won't be able to equip a CR 50+ item so that you can get to CR 100 with elemental fortitude.

But you bring up a good point that these aren't real in-game situations. The Sidhe Lords can choose when to fight and when to sneak away. The Shishi's will have to deal with a counterattack. And I think this is when their limited slots come into play since you won't be able to cover both MR and elemental weaknesses.

[rdonj]

Hmm, you have a point also. I should have said an axe of sharpness, or possibly an axe of hate. I would definitely have gone with fire brand, but was trying to stick to national paths. A fire brand equipped sidhe would easily carve its way through a shishi. Anyway I suppose the initial tests weren't so bad, in retrospect!

[Squirrelloid]

Eriu has issues. I don't think anyone would contest that.

[llamabeast]

Thanks very much everyone for the comments, and thanks especially Valerius for the tests. It looks like the Shishi is still eminently killable, but perhaps it is true that he is applicable in an overly wide range of situations without any modification to his kit, given the low cost.

Okay, my current inclination is to reduce the Shishi attack by, say, 6. Possibly by 8 if it was considered necessary.

The alternative is to reduce their magic to A1 and give them #onebattlespell Mistform. Of course I could do both - maybe they should be cheaper then?

They weren't originally intended to be cloud trapeze assassins. I wanted them to be very flexible and mobile army support, able to take on a chunk of enemy troops (especially demons) as a valuable part of an army. Obviously they are also suited to raiding, which is fine. Of course, you can't really control what people use things for.

I quite like them having 6 attacks. It makes them into a really flurry-of-blows army killer. I could reduce this but it would not be my preferred option.

zzcat: I can see why you think the Zmey is overpowered, but I don't think he is. I did quite a lot of tests against a mundane army of Man knights, without mage support. Before I added the tail (which provides repel), the zmey (with current stats) was always killed, after killing maybe 6-10 knights. I want the Zmey to be a MONSTER - it should be the scariest animal-type monster in the entire game, hence it should be able to take on large numbers of mortal troops (I don't think it will ever compete with a true SC with full slots). The previous incarnation was always killed almost immediately after killing hardly anyone.

However, I would not be averse to reducing the attack on the tail by a couple of points (makes a surprisingly large difference), or to increasing the cost a little. I should perhaps do some tests against an army with mage support. My feeling is that the Zmey would still be killed, but at least he now provides some threat, as desired.

[zzcat]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

zzcat: I can see why you think the Zmey is overpowered, but I don't think he is. I did quite a lot of tests against a mundane army of Man knights, without mage support. Before I added the tail (which provides repel), the zmey (with current stats) was always killed, after killing maybe 6-10 knights. I want the Zmey to be a MONSTER - it should be the scariest animal-type monster in the entire game, hence it should be able to take on large numbers of mortal troops (I don't think it will ever compete with a true SC with full slots). The previous incarnation was always killed almost immediately after killing hardly anyone.

However, I would not be averse to reducing the attack on the tail by a couple of points (makes a surprisingly large difference), or to increasing the cost a little. I should perhaps do some tests against an army with mage support. My feeling is that the Zmey would still be killed, but at least he now provides some threat, as desired.

Have you equiped them? In my test a zmey with body ethereal/lucky pendant/girdle of might/Lycanthropos' Amulet is virtually unkillable for regular troops w/o mage support. In attachment I used a nerfed version of Zmey(with old stat but more hp and tail and making fire breath its primary attack) but it still routed 100 knights quite easily and killed half of them.

[Dimaz]

I wanted them to be very flexible and mobile army support, able to take on a chunk of enemy troops (especially demons) as a valuable part of an army

So far in Lunar Sea they were successful at stopping demonic solo raiders (and lightning attack raiders) while going down quickly faced with groups of ordinary demons (I think the absense of shield plays huge part here). So it seems they can't fill your initial idea currently, as both their stats and Trapeze possibility suggests to use them as anti-raiders, while sending them on demonic armies is not very effective.
But in the new role they are amazingly effective, cutting down entire strategy for Lanka (sure, solo Raksharajas can be killed in a number of ways, but this seems to be one of the cheapest and most effective one).

[Squirrelloid]

Lanka is overpowered anyway, I'm not going to cry if their raiders have a relatively cheap counter...

[Dimaz]

I'm not going to cry either as I'm playing Lanka for the first time there, made tons of wrong decisions but still think I have pretty good position and clearly see that Lanka is one of the strongest EA nations. However, I think that in Dom every counter should have another counter, and for Shishi, trapezing LfL casters looks almost like no-brainer (as Shishi themselves against demon thugs), except that they have more HP than one LfL cast removes. Which means, with luck pendant you should cast it at least 3 times to get reliable result (better 4). That's why I suggested 40 hp instead of 50. As for the gems cost, well, I think 40 is more appropriate, but it's hard for me to find obvious reasons why 40 and not 30 and not 35. Just my impression of their effectiveness in our game.

[llamabeast]

Okay, I am going to reduce the attack of the Shishi by either 6 or 8. Place your votes now.

zzcat, I think you are right - I will nerf the Zmey somewhat, although he will finish closer to his new power level than his old (which was quite useless). I will incorporate the shapechange fixes you noticed, and put the firebreath first as suggested. I'll also fix the shishi's 175 SR while I'm at it.

I think I may increase the cost of the Grendelkin from 40 to 50 gems.

I'm saying all this because I've run out of time to actually do it tonight, and won't get a chance for a few days, so there is some opportunity for people to comment on the proposed changes.

I would also really appreciate it if people had a look at the other summons to see if there are any other concerns. I would like the next version to stand for some time as I think it's best if things don't change too much (how is anyone ever meant to learn tactics if things change all the time?).

I've noticed that comments come thick and fast in response to bold claims by people. Hence I make these bold claims:

ASYNJA IS OP, HOW ARE YOU MEANT TO CATCH A GLAMOUR SC?

WENDIGO IS SLOW TO GROW AND CONSEQUENTLY USELESS

NO USE CAN BE FOUND FOR THE STUPID ROC

TREANT IS TOO SLOW AND IS WORSE THAN MONKEY PD

GRENDELKIN CANNOT BE KILLED

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Okay, I am going to reduce the attack of the Shishi by either 6 or 8. Place your votes now.

zzcat, I think you are right - I will nerf the Zmey somewhat, although he will finish closer to his new power level than his old (which was quite useless). I will incorporate the shapechange fixes you noticed, and put the firebreath first as suggested. I'll also fix the shishi's 175 SR while I'm at it.

I think I may increase the cost of the Grendelkin from 40 to 50 gems.

I'm saying all this because I've run out of time to actually do it tonight, and won't get a chance for a few days, so there is some opportunity for people to comment on the proposed changes.

I would also really appreciate it if people had a look at the other summons to see if there are any other concerns. I would like the next version to stand for some time as I think it's best if things don't change too much (how is anyone ever meant to learn tactics if things change all the time?).

I've noticed that comments come thick and fast in response to bold claims by people. Hence I make these bold claims:

ASYNJA IS OP, HOW ARE YOU MEANT TO CATCH A GLAMOUR SC?

WENDIGO IS SLOW TO GROW AND CONSEQUENTLY USELESS

NO USE CAN BE FOUND FOR THE STUPID ROC

TREANT IS TOO SLOW AND IS WORSE THAN MONKEY PD

GRENDELKIN CANNOT BE KILLED

I guess if you are going to reduce the attack skill of shishis, 6 is probably the maximum that is doable (otherwise they will be not much use against demon thugs/SCs, and I like that they have a niche there). 8 definitely seems excessive, even with 6 attacks to whittle defense down. EDIT: I've just realized shishi currently have 17 attack skill. I remembered reading that they had 20. My vote is thus changed to not lowering the attack skill to below 14.

I think Asynja should probably be left alone for a bit. They are a bit frail as SCs, and though stealth+glamour means it's really hard to catch one, right now in MP games it's looking like they may be sidelined a bit as SCs and end up more as casters.

The wendigo right now is in an interesting spot, as an SC available with only 6 in a school. They take a while to grow, but they are still useful before fully grown and while it's a bit painful to have to wait for them, you can have a decent number of them before other people have access to real SCs. I think these need more testing before changes are made to them.

Rocs provide access to air magic, as squirrel said, and that definitely makes them not useless! Especially with the siege bonus 30, they should be excellent army support midgame casting fog warriors/wrathful skies/etc in battle, and helping break down walls on the strategic map. The patrol bonus could also be useful in certain situations, though it's not really what I'd buy them for. More of a useful bonus. They are also certainly usable as light raiders earlier on, and counter raiders, which should be able to kill lower end thugs. By the way it is these with the 175 shock resist, not shishis.

I think the Treant needs to lose the rooted form, but have the rooted bonuses transferred to the walking form. It is more cool presently in my opinion, but it would be much more usable with this change. Having to root to be an effective fighter could lead to some verious silly scenarios, like the treant trying to rout but not being able to move, so it dies even if it could kill what's attacking it. Also it should probably gain a little AP, or possibly instead 1 more mapmove. One or the other IMO.

Grendelkin are awesome but don't have great skill and have no magic or resists. They're definitely killable, it is just very hard. They could maybe lose some strength. Go down by 10 or so. They should be very killable by armies though, and it's hard for them to catch SCs. I'd like to see people use these more before they're changed too much