OT: Let’s all take a deep breath

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd

it's funny when you speak so valiantly about a topic yet you are so clueless about it... local rules, be it your house, a forum, a country's laws, or whatever else, do not affect the freedom of speech which is a universal concept.

Clueless, am I?

As a concept of universal rights, you have the right to seek information, to receive information, and to express information. Moreover, the means of expression is not limited to any specific medium, you have the right to express it via any medium.

This does not, however, give you the right to do this wherever you want saying whatever you want without consequences to your actions. In my example, where I forbid talking in my house, I have not violated your rights to express information. I have not sought to prevent you from obtaining or receiving specific or general information. I have merely applied a sanction to you (evicting you from my property) that I am granted by another right (my right to decide who gets to be on my property for whatever reason I see fit). The latter right might possibly conflict with other rights (universal or not).

So, while not a violation of the universal concept, it might be a violation of a non-universal practical interpretation as codified by laws; However, most such laws dealing with practical interpretations deal with freedom of speech in public.

[13lackGu4rd]

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen

Clueless, am I?

As a concept of universal rights, you have the right to seek information, to receive information, and to express information. Moreover, the means of expression is not limited to any specific medium, you have the right to express it via any medium.

This does not, however, give you the right to do this wherever you want saying whatever you want without consequences to your actions. In my example, where I forbid talking in my house, I have not violated your rights to express information. I have not sought to prevent you from obtaining or receiving specific or general information. I have merely applied a sanction to you (evicting you from my property) that I am granted by another right (my right to decide who gets to be on my property for whatever reason I see fit). The latter right might possibly conflict with other rights (universal or not).

So, while not a violation of the universal concept, it might be a violation of a non-universal practical interpretation as codified by laws; However, most such laws dealing with practical interpretations deal with freedom of speech in public.

nice argument, too bad it was entirely off topic. the passage I quoted of you clearly said that is doesn't violate the freedom of speech if you tell somebody who arrived at your home to not say a single word. you claimed it doesn't violate the freedom of speech when Shrapnel perma banned Sombre and others for speaking their minds, no matter how they said it. that was what you said and is what I corrected you on. in that passage alone you didn't mention consequences, limits of freedom of speech, etc, you just claimed it doesn't apply in these situations, because it's comfortable to you that it won't.

also, why bring the right for information and all these other things into it? there's absolutely no relevance... now, I clearly said that freedom of speech has its limitations. even the most liberal places have some limitations on it, good job for stating the obvious there! however you can't deny that these limitations are arguable, and it's a very thin line that has no clear boundaries. also you can't just dismiss things when they don't suit your agenda, and rambling off topic to prove a false point is just dumb...

[Daynarr]

Actually, It's more like I invite someone in my house and he starts calling me a (insert insult here). I throw him out and he says I violated his freedom of speech.

[Gandalf Parker]

Except that this is not a country. This is Internet.

And..
everything has its pros/cons. Even free speech. Its not how much you are willing to damage it.
Its where on the scale do you wish to be balancing its benefits vs its detriments.
(hint: neither extreme tends to be a good answer)

[Annette]

Please, gentlemen, let's keep this civil. Shrapnel Games' policy regarding freedom of speech is found under the "Terms of Use" section in "Forum Rules."

[lch]

I thought this was over in the middle of page 7. Back to the OP's post, please?

[Gandalf Parker]

How geeky are we? Mixing virtual world with real world in everything?

OK how about this? In our VIRTUAL Community we VIRTUALLY have Free Speech?
(see the play on words? virtually as in "almost like but not really")

The organization of the Internet is much like a giant democracy made up of many small tyrannies.

[Gandalf Parker]

I see your points. But I cant really say I agree with alot of that.

Surely a person can have different rules or attitudes about something in different places? I have different ideas of what should be allowable concerning nudity, cursing, drinking, smoking, brawling, noise, etc which varies for different places.

Is this just between you two? (referring to the "our western world")

As to the lack of comments, that might in itself be part of the problem. I have emails and PMs from people who felt they were being chased out. One recently chewed me out for "abandoning the forum" because when he was "ganged up on there was no gang to stand beside me". Another referred to the "elites". What you are saying is that you arent hearing much from the people still here. Possibly that is part of what is on the scale of measurement altho I suspect its yet another collection that is in the vaults of private communications..

[rdonj]

Hmm. I have to say, I have been on a lot of forums, and there is always a bit of an "old guard" situation, where certain forum members are very highly respected. These guys are pillars of the community. They've earned friends, rivals, and the respect and loathing of numerous others. The situation we have here is hardly any different. You have to expect this sort of thing in a forum, or indeed any community. Someone who has been around for a while is going to have friends who will stick up for them. Some random newbie who just wandered in, probably won't.

That said, this is also one of the most noob-friendly forums I've been on. I've seen posts that... well, let me just say, if I'd seen them on most other forums the person would immediately have been pulverized by the level of bashing. If a person was honestly chased away by this forum... I don't know that they can survive just about anywhere on the internet, sombre or not. I would invite these people to think back carefully. We do have a few members who have no problem being rude whenever they feel like it. But we also always have members that will come in and stick up for the new guy, or just calmly and politely answer their questions. I can't imagine it's really as bad as all that.

Then again, I've been on the internet since I was 8, so maybe I'm unreasonably inured to general crustiness.


By the way, someone earlier said that sombre doesn't play any MP games... that's not true. He does play MP, usually small games with mod nations, primarily dominated by the IRC crowd. Ever see the scruntlefut or spumbum games? Doesn't really matter, but I'm the sort that likes to point out these things

[13lackGu4rd]

since when was the discussion about a set of rules for various things? you've also entirely missed the point Gandalf. it's about standards, or more precisely, double standards. not about rules...

and well, can you really blame me for not seeing PMs you receive(no idea why you but whatever) or PMs that somebody else receives? I'm saying that I couldn't find them speak up over the forums, where the public eye can see it... also I clearly said that I don't have access to all the information, PMs being among them, as well as the administrative forums, etc.