Spells that arguably break the game

[militarist]

Do boots of youth save again BoT? Ive read somewhere that not, but why it could be?

[rdonj]

Perhaps by somewhere you mean the second post in this thread? It does seem buggy that they don't protect against it. Which would make casting rejuvenate the best bet for keeping your mages alive while BoT is up.

[Verjigorm]

This was part of an MP Game thread (that I believe spawned this thread), but:

Just tested:

Lycanthropos' Amulet removes Disease affliction and cures "old age" when it activates.

Any mage you use it on becomes ritual-only due to the "Gone Berserk" effect, but since the disease disappears when it activates it actually makes a more robust ritual caster mage. I was using these on Crones with MA Man. The non-disease afflictions remain after transformation, so you might eventually want a healer, but this would make old age less of a concern for nations like Abysia. 2N required to make means that if all you have is Wolf Tribe Shamans you might have to empower nature by 1, but very worth the time. Any mage with a disease gets an amulet.

[Verjigorm]

Most sincere apologies on that last comment! I made an error in my experiment.

The Crone in question did, indeed, lose her "Diseased" affliction when she transformed into a werewolf. She also regained all of her hit points. However, I forgot that I had also cast "Gift of Health" which is a probable source for the loss of the affliction.

I will retest momentarily....

Retest complete. The transformation neither cures the disease nor restores any lost hit points or alter the age limits of the commander.

[Micah]

BoT could certainly go, it's an incredibly powerful spell under the right circumstances, it's very difficult to counter effectively (especially since overwriting doesn't help outside of then being able to kill the caster which then leaves an empty global slot...), and it doesn't serve as a vital counter TO anything (like mind hunt vs stealth.) Sea of Ice could also be given the axe.

Both these spells are able to effectively shut down the games of certain nations without necessarily painting a target on the caster's head from unaffected nations, which is a bad play mechanic (though great strategy...divide and conquer.) Most of the "balance" of these spells comes from the circumstances they need to be effective being rare, but they're both kind of stupidly overpowered in the right situation. The fact that they can't be overwritten REALLY makes it worse as well, since Dispel is a loser's game.

Everything else on the list adds a good amount of tactical depth to the game.

[thejeff]

Why is Dispel a loser's game? Just because you don't know how many gems went into it?

I got nailed by Sea of Ice in one game as EA Atlantis. The most frustrating thing about it was that my thugs & SCs could still retreat to underwater from coastal provinces, but were then trapped. No teleport magic on Basalt Kings.

[Micah]

Originally Posted by thejeff

Why is Dispel a loser's game? Just because you don't know how many gems went into it?

I got nailed by Sea of Ice in one game as EA Atlantis. The most frustrating thing about it was that my thugs & SCs could still retreat to underwater from coastal provinces, but were then trapped. No teleport magic on Basalt Kings.

Dispel is bad for a number of reasons.

First: You either guess high and waste gems, or guess low and waste gems and do nothing to the global. Overwriting is always a stronger play in terms of gem efficiency, since you can then guess high and get something out of it in the form of a stronger global. This obviously breaks down when the global doesn't care who cast it, which is why Sea and BoT are particularly problematic. (Ones like Utterdark at least have the distinction of guaranteeing world-hate, Burden and Sea don't have that balance mechanism depending on nation selection.)

Second: Pearls are worth more than other gems (specifically 2:1 once wish is available). Having to use pearls to dispel a non-pearl global at 1:1 is a losing proposition. Sea of Ice is again especially painful here due to using W gems. At low-level casts the low base cost makes up for some of the disparity, but once someone plows 200 extra gems into a global you're pretty screwed in terms of gem trade. Note that this exacerbates the first problem, since in addition to having to use more "expensive" gems you're also virtually guaranteed to waste a good chunk of them in the dispel roulette.

Third: It's reactive. The global has at least a turn to work before you can fling a dispel, meaning your opponent gets something out of their investment no matter what.

Fourth: There's now a big hole where that global used to be, meaning you might find yourself in the exact same situation next turn.

Think that hits most of the main points pretty well. Extra gems in dispels should count at 2:1, but that's a programming change that's unlikely to happen. Makes a ton of thematic sense as well, since breaking a spell down should be easier than putting it up. Regardless, as things stand, dispel is terrible. (Though sometimes still the best option due to being the only option.)

[RadicalTurnip]

Originally Posted by Micah

Second: Pearls are worth more than other gems (specifically 2:1 once wish is available). Having to use pearls to dispel a non-pearl global at 1:1 is a losing proposition. Sea of Ice is again especially painful here due to using W gems. At low-level casts the low base cost makes up for some of the disparity, but once someone plows 200 extra gems into a global you're pretty screwed in terms of gem trade. Note that this exacerbates the first problem, since in addition to having to use more "expensive" gems you're also virtually guaranteed to waste a good chunk of them in the dispel roulette.

Well, you could always overwrite and then kill your guy off, if you don't want to waste the astral. With death and water, it's not too hard to get a D/W 3 up to D/W 5 with boosters, then cast, take the boosters off, and go kill him into someone's PD...Granted, still not a winning solution, but it could be better than the alternative.

Quick Anecdote: In a recent MP game I was steamrolling the last 2 opponents before I fought the other super-power, and so I put up BoT because I also had a pretty strong Gift of Health and I though I could summon some fairy queens for the difference. Well, after a handful of turns, I eventually realized after reading something on the boards: my enemy was LA R'lyeh. Their mages have thousands of years to go before they get old I quickly dispelled it (I had AN up too) and won because of my superior global and artifact position (and I think he gave up without really staying to duke it out).

[Lingchih]

Well, quoting Micah. Dispel is often the only option. It's not necessarily a good option.

[DeadlyShoe]

Well, burden of time would kill off province pop before R'lyeh could convert them. Lol.