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  #1  
Old February 18th, 2011, 02:49 PM

Hrum Hrum is offline
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Default Re: Turbocharged AI vs Humanities Last Hope - Running

Mauxe, I saw that fight you had with Abysia a turn or two ago - the one in which your elephants turned and routed through your Spire Horn Archers. It looked rough.

You haven't solicited any advice on this, so feel free to tell me to go stuff it (maybe you already know this stuff), but I noticed something and thought I'd share. That army you sent againt Abysia had a decent chance of stomping them, or at the very least doing a lot more damage. Mammoths are great for cracking heavy infantry (if you send enough of them - in small numbers they can still be mobbed). However, there were 2 problems with that army as I see it:

1. Too many archers.
2. Starvation.

1. Archers aren't likely to perform very well against Abysia. You're going to see a lot of heavy infantry from Abysia, with prot in the mid teens and many of them have shields. These kinds of guys will largely ignore archer fire. Sure a lucky shot will get through here and there, but in general those heavily armored boys aren't going to be much hampered by the arrows bouncing off their armor. Your mamoths are a different story. Their protection is down around 10, isn't it? That's low enough that they could take some serious damage from your volleys, and since tramplers get right in among the enemy, the arrows will be falling all around them.

2. Starvation is an army killer. It looked like all the guys you had in that fight were diseased, in many cases with additional afflictions besides. Starvation causes disease, and also lowers morale by 4! Your mamoths and all your archers were in single digit morale (what was it - morale 6 on the archers, 8 on the mamoths?). No army will give a good account of itself with morale like that.

That area where you're fighting has a lot swamps, which are really low supply. Best thing would probably be to forge some bags of wine or cauldrons of broth. I have nature mages and can forge some for you if you need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doo View Post
I'm intending upon doing this type of game again and would appreciate some feedback about how your finding the pacing, level of AI threat (perceived and/or real), the slower research and anything else worth commenting on.
Overall, I'm enjoying myself so far. More specifically...

Semirand: The tough indies from semirand have been amusing, but my feelings on them are mixed because I think they've really hampered AI expansion. Usually at this point in a non-semirand game (Winter of 2nd yr), I'd be in a fight to the death with at least one AI, but as it is it seems like they're still sorting out their borders and dealing with indie provinces. Obviously Atlantis and Niefelheim have both done reasonably well in expansion (I don't have intel on TC), but Abysia seems to have been really hampered. This is all really a feeling though. As buff as NTJedi apparently made these AIs, they may yet come out bigger than I realize (and I do expect dealing with Atlantis to be tough), but at this point my confidence is high. Net result, thus far I think semirand has entertained me greatly, but also helped me in keeping the AIs at bay while I get my research up to spec. So don't take this as a complaint, having to be careful / creative during expansion has been interesting. However, I think it may've messed up the AIs a bit.

Hard Research: No complaints. I don't have a feel for the level of research by the AIs, but I feel like it is slowing down the players in becoming uber. I think the pain of this would be more acute on a non-semirand map.

Graphs: I think graphs on would be a good thing, just in terms of measuring the state of things / how well the AI is performing. I can scout out their province growth, but I don't have a good sense of how they're doing in other respects. In a game where you're doing experiments and trying to gauge how well things come together, it'd be easier to see how well this stuff is working if we had graphs.

Better Independents: BI can be a pain for Kailasa. The monkeys are seriously vulnerable to archers, and so more archers is never good news. On the other hand that can present a challenge, and I knew to expect it from the word go. I haven't actually experienced the mega archer horder yet, though, since I'm not yet at war with the AI. BI also means that it's harder to find indie chaff that's recruitable. Some nations don't care about that because their national troops are so much better than indies, but I think Kailasa likes to recruit indies for niche uses. IMO, indie light infantry with their shields make better arrow screens than any monkey troops, but BI makes about half of these unavailable (you can only recruit the ones with javelins - the no javelin types cost 9K). Finding a province with the right kind of light infantry that has enough resources to recruit a decent number (especially with my sloth scales) isn't easy. I lucked out on finding a prov that yields a decent number, but I could just as easily still be hunting for them.

On the other hand, anything that weakens the players while simultaneously improving the AI is probably still worth doing for a game like this. The worst is when you stomp the AIs with no difficulty at all - game over. If the game is presenting us with a challenge, BI probably deserves some credit for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanatus del Dragos View Post
I'm scared of the AI. I'm Scared of the independents, lol. I have yet to clear the independents around my starting point due to how hard they were, that kind of blows. Otherwise, I'm having a lot of fun.
Exactly. Scared of the AIs is a thumbs up for the AI buffing. Scared of the indies is a thumbs up for semirand. Scared is good. Frustrated is bad. I haven't been frustrated yet - and there has been some fear. That's an overall thumbs up.

AI Buffing: Thumbs up to Doo and NTJedi. I haven't been able to measure the full effect of this yet, but in the scouting I've done and battles I've watched, I think the tailor-made AIs are much better than the random AIs you normally get in SP (at least Atlantis and Niefelheim look pretty kick @**). I think all the AIs would've fared better without semirand, but that's just my impression at this point. We'll see how it goes...

AI Numbers / Teams: I know I'd be sweating things more if we had another AI or two on this map, and/or all the AIs were teamed (ie. if Atlantis wasn't distracting Niefelheim). Don't know how the other players feel about this, but Kailasa is actually getting a lot more breathing room than expected since the AIs are busy messing with each other instead of me.

Last edited by Hrum; February 18th, 2011 at 02:50 PM.. Reason: Tweaking stuff
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  #2  
Old February 18th, 2011, 07:30 PM

Mauxe Mauxe is offline
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Default Re: Turbocharged AI vs Humanities Last Hope - Running

I do appreciate the feedback. I'm still fairly new to the game and a lot of things still elude me...

Generally I get that "starving" message right after conquering a province. Is the only way to prevent that having supply items (or a smaller army)?

Is there a way to reverse the diseased troop process?
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  #3  
Old February 18th, 2011, 09:57 PM

Hrum Hrum is offline
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Default Re: Turbocharged AI vs Humanities Last Hope - Running

If your army eats more supply than what's produced by the province you're in, you get the starvation message. Insufficient supply for even a single unit will give you that message, but how many units actually suffer starvation (and get diseased as a result) I believe to be related to how much the needs of your army exceed the available supply. In other words, if you're only a couple of points over the supply limit of a province, you're probably OK (just don't dawdle there). If your army wants double the available supply, you're in trouble. The exact ratio where it becomes a serious problem - that I'm not so sure about.

Here's a thread that talks about starvation:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35873

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauxe View Post
Is there a way to reverse the diseased troop process?
The short answer is no.

The global Gift of Health removes afflictions on all friendly troops within your dominion. The unique artifact The Chalice heals afflictions of units that reside in the same province as the unit that holds it. And some units in the game have the healer ability, which allows them to heal units. Some nations have healers as recruitables (Arcoscephale & ?), otherwise if you have high level nature mages and a lot of conjuration research you can summon Faery Queens.

http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Faerie_Court
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Priestess

With the possible exception of Gift of Health (and that only when you're operating in friendly dominion), in general if your army is heavily diseased, it's toast. Most human sized troops don't have enough health to survive long enough for you to do anything about it once they become diseased. 10 HP goes away really quickly.
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  #4  
Old February 18th, 2011, 11:48 PM

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Default Re: Turbocharged AI vs Humanities Last Hope - Running

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrum View Post
Most human sized troops don't have enough health to survive long enough for you to do anything about it once they become diseased. 10 HP goes away really quickly.
Once they get diseased they automatically rack up other afflictions as well.

Its not uncommon for a diseased unit to have its arms fall off. Disease in the world of Dominions is rough.
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  #5  
Old February 20th, 2011, 06:01 AM

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Turns 17-23

Refresh: Up to this point I can say I'm happy with where I'm at, which is easy to say when you have very little idea how everyone else is doing, graphs are turned off

No real contact yet made with the enemy, its been an indie bashing extravaganza.

Our pretender Chris the Sheep has awoken and the hero Lugh joined our worthy cause. So had the mercenaries Dagan the Renegade Sage and the Archers in White.

Or they were with us, on turn 18..



and



Losing Dagan is a blow as apart from Chris the Sheep no other Tir na n'Og character has native Astral access. I simply forgot to bid on him.

However on turn 19..



Seems everyone else is forgetting to bid too

In a fit of role-playing frenzy I lock Dagan in the magical workshop to forge items, never to be released again.

Has anyone wondered why he is the "Renegade" sage? I googled him and found he is actually a hip hop artist who aims to be able to cast Master Enslave. A challenge to any reader, at a base Astral level of 1S, what would Dagan have to do to be able to cast Master Enslave?

Bet you can make me love you? Dagan I already do

On turn 20..



Neither Tien Chi or myself wanted this, we both targeted the same indie province.

The Tien Chi force..



As a benevolent human I sent Tien Chi a message stating that we hoped humans and AI's could live in peace.

Elsewhere scouts report on an indie province..



Their leader..



A little bit of SemiRand magic.

On turn 23 Tien Chi reveals the treachery of the cold electronic heart..



A totally unprovoked attack on the hapless PD..



There are thesis's to be written on the economics of PD, I'll sum it all up by saying that the game has it wrong. Basically that first person to sign up would actually be the most expensive and every other PD recruit would cost less. Why? Because when your god only hires three of you to defend against that you really should have a pension put away for your loved ones, and a 1gp sign-on fee is going to get your widow diddly-squat.

Conversely due to the magic ability of all PD to miraculously resurrect upon victory the wise PD recruit would price themselves to allow their god to recruit as many as possible to ensure victory, especially given that once a critical mass is reached victory is almost a certainty, thus a widows pay-out is not needed and employment is ensured.

I digress..

This is where we are at. Here is my research..



You will notice Alt-3 is almost done, the big spell there is Mistform.

Switching to Evocation my aim is Evo-5 for Orb Lightning and Storm. These spells are for my Tuatha Sorceress's, Storm allows us to eliminate 50% of non-magical ranged attacks (note our armies have zero ranged units while Tien Chi seems to be largely horse archers), allows our Air mages to cast Summon Storm Power for a +1 to Air magic and finally Orb Lightning casts one Lightning Bolt per level of Air magic per turn.

For my Ri and Sidhe Lords I've been forging Pendants of Luck, Vine Shields, Rainbow Armors and Frost Brands. Coupled with Mistform and Mirror Image my guys are going to be kicking. I may need to add a secondary Reinvigorating item but lets see how they go first, I don't want to be having to invest too much per thug, because as Stalin said "Quantity has a quality of its own". To this end Chris the Sheep is forging the third Dwarven Hammer this turn.

Our Gem income..



Only one extra Air and Astral per turn since last update. This is mainly due to Chris the Sheep having other duties than site searching. I am reminded to invest some more effort into finding more sites.

The map..



Its a bit hard to read, I'm trying to conserve peoples bandwidth by shrinking the image, but if you squint you can see Tien Chi's and our border to the west. That Tien Chi province to my north is cut off from my lands by two rather tough indie provinces, I will need to pay attention to ensure I'm not surprised. To my east I have just found Caelum, I'm sending through scouts to find Abysia, and through diplomacy I know Caelum is also to my north. Caelum is of course human and thus an ally.

Lastly another challenge, keen eyed readers may notice one picture in this post does not belong in the context it is presented in. Which one is it?

Last edited by Doo; February 20th, 2011 at 06:15 AM..
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  #6  
Old February 21st, 2011, 10:07 PM
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Gandalf Parker Gandalf Parker is offline
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Default Re: Turbocharged AI vs Humanities Last Hope - Running

More and more Im getting requests for game-check links on private games.
So we now have two.

One for ALL games (private and public)
http://game.dom3minions.com/bin/games_chk.cgi

And a smaller list of just the private games (like this one)
http://game.dom3minions.com/bin/privategames.cgi

Gandalf Parker
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  #7  
Old February 21st, 2011, 10:26 PM

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Default Re: Turbocharged AI vs Humanities Last Hope - Running

Cheers for this Gandalf, I've book-marked that page.
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Old February 22nd, 2011, 02:08 PM

Hrum Hrum is offline
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Default Re: Turbocharged AI vs Humanities Last Hope - Running

Thanks Gandalf! That's really helpful. And, since I don't think I've said it already, thanks for hosting this game and dom3minions in general.

Turn 25 is up.

(Probably less necessary for me to begin my posts with this now that we have that status link from Gandalf, but I am a creature of habit.)

The fishmen look to be winning the war on the northern provinces of the frost giants. Atlantis is now sieging both of the indie forts along the coast, having kicked Niefelheim off of the eastern one in prov 60. In the southwest, Niefelheim is also at war with our friends C'Tis, but I am not sure how that is going - it does not yet look conclusive.

And Kailasa has decided to join the fray - sacred troops and human infantry have marched into Niefelheim territory and taken a couple of provinces! We now march on the southern fort of the frost giants!

Unfortunately, some foolish monkey forgot to bring along the bags of endless sustenance. After offering our flying friends in the north our counsel to avoid starvation at all costs, the troops of Kailasa have fallen prey to this very thing in the barren mountain passes that the monkeys must pass through on their way to Niefelheim. Endless bags of ghee and gulab jamun syrup are being rushed to the front.

A monkey scout has spotted an Abysian expansion force in the south. That isolated fort has finally managed to start expanding. It appears that they have only that one additional province so far, but perhaps they will continue to conquer their neighbors now.

A chittering monkey runner eager to deliver a message to our mages knocked over some volatile substances in a magickal research lab and the whole building went up in flame. This is the 2nd time Kailasa has lost a lab to fire in recent memory. Some discussion with the Yogi researchers about safety precautions may be in order. The markata who caused this has been demoted from runner to mango picker - he now spends his days attached to a long pole that is used by a bandar retired-military-officer-now-gardener who wields the markata-pole for pruning mango trees and picking the harder to reach fruit. If he ever stops chittering excuses and looking to place blame elsewhere perhaps this markata will be allowed to return to his previous profession, but he is currently far from attaining even a modicum of enlightenment.
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Old February 22nd, 2011, 02:45 PM

Hrum Hrum is offline
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Default Re: Turbocharged AI vs Humanities Last Hope - Running

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doo View Post
Lastly another challenge, keen eyed readers may notice one picture in this post does not belong in the context it is presented in. Which one is it?
How about a hint?

Here's the map situation on the southern continent as it looks to Kailasa currently:



I've been fairly conservative these last several turns. I was trying to catch up some in research before tackling Niefelheim, and I've been avoiding expanding into contact with Atlantis. I expect Atlantis to be the tough fight in this game.

Any news from TC up north?
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Old February 22nd, 2011, 03:09 PM

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Default Re: Turbocharged AI vs Humanities Last Hope - Running

Alrighty, this was a devastating turn for C'tis. Had hunkered down in province 12 after taking it from Niefel. I bumped up the local PD to 25. Had a nice number of troops there and either due to my poor scripting or just Niefels superiority he destroyed me with minimal losses to himself. Lost my god about 10 magic items. He was fighting in my Dominion too and the heat didn't seem to matter to him one bit. He now has serious ability to continue deep into my few territories and obliterate me. I'm 1 point away from having Alt 5, already have const4 and conj 1. Mayhap I can limp along long enough to get my darkness/skellispam up and running.

Atlantis is a MONSTER this game. With all the activity being reported by the other players I was hoping to not see him down my way. But, he took a province at 73. Not sure what he's got there yet. Maybe next turn.

Good luck.

Anyone looking to trade for gems? I need death gems primarily right now. Would also trade for blood slaves at say 1 gem to 10 slaves. Can you trade military units in this game?
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